Mark Clark [00:00:00]:
All right, welcome to the Mark Clark podcast. Hopefully you were doing well. I sat down with one of the great leaders, Brad Lomenick. He used to lead this amazing leadership conference called Catalyst. It was one of the biggest in America. People would come from all over the place. And he's a writer, he's a thinker, he hosts his own podcast. And he is one of the best people in the world at bringing leaders together.
Mark Clark [00:00:20]:
And just his brain, the way he thinks through different dynamics. And he's constantly studying things about church dynamics, theological dynamics. I think you're really gonna enjoy this. I sat down and we had about a 40 minute conversation. Everything, God, ministry, life, golf. He's an amazing guy. Hopefully you enjoy this conversation with the great Brad Lomenick. You know, I think that for me, I didn't grow up in the church, so church leadership to me is like, it's not that.
Mark Clark [00:00:51]:
It's not important. Of course. That's why we have these podcasts.
Brad Lomenick [00:00:54]:
Right, Exactly. That's why you're listening.
Mark Clark [00:00:56]:
Yeah, exactly. But it's like, it's not the, you know, I'm like, okay, so I'm here, I'm there. So even when I. Even when I, like, started our church, I, you know, I led it for 12 years, planted it. Literally 16 people in my house.
Mark Clark [00:01:08]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:01:10]:
And. But I used to teach and preach all the time. Like, look, if God calls me somewhere else, I'm out. You know, I don't, you know, and so if Jesus calls me to go do something, so I see it, me and my family see it as like the next phase of the adventure that God has us on. Yes. There's a weighty, like, oh, my goodness, these people, we left, these staff, we left.
Mark Clark [00:01:30]:
Right.
Mark Clark [00:01:31]:
It's a big deal. That's not small.
Mark Clark [00:01:32]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:01:33]:
You know, I hired every single one of these people and some of them left careers.
Mark Clark [00:01:38]:
Yeah.
Brad Lomenick [00:01:38]:
To join you.
Mark Clark [00:01:39]:
Yes. They moved across countries. You know, they're working as an engineer, they're working. Running an autism thing in the. Working on here move. And, and they. And so for me to go, hey, I'm. But, you know, in a sense, of course, we as leaders own all of that.
Mark Clark [00:01:57]:
And we have to. If we're going to call people, there's a responsibility there, but I don't know that we own it to the point of, like, if God calls us to do something else that we should not, you know, obey, it's disobedience. That's the problem. When God says, hey, there's a new thing for you and your family and I Want you to go do it. To not do it would be a problem.
Brad Lomenick [00:02:15]:
So would you say that part of the decision to, to come to Bayside was that you were, you wouldn't, you would not be carrying the full weight of being the point leader, or was that a, that, that, that really wasn't a big factor? Meaning, Meaning you were looking at it going, I'm tired of carrying the weight.
Mark Clark [00:02:38]:
Yeah.
Brad Lomenick [00:02:38]:
I want to go somewhere where I don't have to carry as much weight.
Mark Clark [00:02:40]:
No. Because I, I, I, in coming here, and I think I, you know, I looked at this as like, I want to help Ray carry the weight of this place.
Mark Clark [00:02:48]:
Yes.
Brad Lomenick [00:02:48]:
Okay. Which is probably a better way to say it. Yes.
Mark Clark [00:02:50]:
Yeah. Which is probably triple the size of what I was leading.
Mark Clark [00:02:53]:
Yes.
Mark Clark [00:02:54]:
Triple the budget. You know, so there's still weight that I'm stepping into, even in my role here. But I'm not like the, the, the final. I'm not the Ray, I'm not the final. Like, if I, you know, something happens and I can't pay people. But I still feel that because I'm, I'm, I'm in the rooms that are saying, we're going to do this, we're going to do this, we're going to do this. So in the end of the day, I do fall asleep and go, we got to make sure we pay the youth and the interns and blah, blah. So, no.
Mark Clark [00:03:21]:
And at Village, I think there was such a great, like, obviously I was the guy that would own the weight there, but I had such a great team around me. They all kind of carried that weight too. So. No, and I didn't, you know, I didn't. I felt like God had, like, there was so many moments where it was like, something bad would go down or there'd be financial stuff, and God would just show up and provide for us. And it was like, okay, you know, this is this. Okay. So coming down here, I was like, I want to help do this the best I can, help Ray lead this thing.
Mark Clark [00:03:49]:
Because this is what God's called us to as the next phase of our, of our lives. And I'm going to lean into a couple different things that, like, coming down here, they have a college, right? They have, you know, let's highlight what's.
Brad Lomenick [00:04:02]:
Going on here, because this is now part of the story for you and.
Mark Clark [00:04:06]:
These newer things, it was like, okay, cool, I got all the visual. But this stuff's like, I want to start leaning into this stuff. So, you know, Thrive College is an amazing thing that we've hired 110, I think, people from that college leadership pipeline right there. Exactly. That are, like, now, the worship pastors.
Mark Clark [00:04:24]:
Yes.
Mark Clark [00:04:25]:
Student pastors and all that. So it's pretty cool. So I think there's 55 students in it now, but I think the vision is to try to grow to 2 or 300. And so it's. How do you. How do you get there? You know, it's like an accredited college.
Mark Clark [00:04:36]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:04:36]:
You know, and they're here two or three years. And anyway, so it's.
Brad Lomenick [00:04:39]:
Well, by the way, for. For anybody that is thinking about how do you find talent? You raise it up. We're all. Every organizational leader I know is trying to navigate how do I find talent? How do I recruit talent.
Mark Clark [00:04:55]:
Yes.
Brad Lomenick [00:04:56]:
How do I develop talent? How do I retain talent?
Mark Clark [00:04:59]:
Yes.
Brad Lomenick [00:05:00]:
And Thrive College is one of the things that Bayside has put in place to solve that problem. Like, you said, what, 100. You said 100.
Mark Clark [00:05:10]:
110 or 120 over the last, like, five or six, whatever years. Right. We've hired them.
Brad Lomenick [00:05:16]:
You've hired them. You kept them here.
Mark Clark [00:05:17]:
Yeah.
Brad Lomenick [00:05:17]:
And you get to choose the best. You get to watch them.
Mark Clark [00:05:19]:
Right.
Brad Lomenick [00:05:20]:
You get to watch them intern. You get to 100, see them work.
Mark Clark [00:05:22]:
And they get here when they're like 20. Right. And they're just like. You can just imprint theology. You can imprint culture. Like, we serve here. We're here to serve. You know, you're not getting a parking spot, you're getting a towel.
Mark Clark [00:05:35]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:05:35]:
You know, and we're going to sell. It's a great chance.
Brad Lomenick [00:05:37]:
That'd be a good book right there, right?
Mark Clark [00:05:38]:
Yeah.
Brad Lomenick [00:05:39]:
Or good talk. That'd be a good talk.
Mark Clark [00:05:40]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:05:41]:
Well, that's. That. That's what I love compared to the parking lot. And that's what I love about being here, too. Again, Village had a ton of great stuff, but it's like there was. There's these things that Ray was able to create down here. Thrive Conference that we're sitting at right now.
Mark Clark [00:05:55]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:05:55]:
It's like, what an opportunity to hang out with the best leaders in the world and do leadership stuff and develop people, make connections. And, you know, we just didn't have that now. I could have started it, but it was like God was. And there was also. There were some other things, too. You know, there was. There was some timing stuff about coming here. You know, my kids were at an age where it's like, if we're going to go somewhere else, it's time to do it.
Mark Clark [00:06:17]:
There was some. There Was some. My heart started to move toward a lot of, like, writing. I love writing. By the way. You're a great writer.
Brad Lomenick [00:06:25]:
No, you're. But let's. Let's be clear. You're a writer. I'm probably more of an author. Meaning that.
Mark Clark [00:06:31]:
Oh, wow, look at this distinction. Interesting.
Brad Lomenick [00:06:34]:
I'd love to hear your perspective on this because you actually. You're both a great communicator as well as a great writer. But you actually enjoy the writing.
Mark Clark [00:06:42]:
I love the writing.
Brad Lomenick [00:06:43]:
You would probably say you are a writer who speaks.
Mark Clark [00:06:46]:
I would say it's a great. I would say back in the day, I liked. I wrote before I spoke, but nobody read anything I wrote because it was to me, my mom or whatever.
Mark Clark [00:06:57]:
But.
Mark Clark [00:06:57]:
But like, if someone said to me right now, you can just write and then you'll make the same amount of money and you'll just.
Brad Lomenick [00:07:06]:
Yeah, that'll be your outfit.
Mark Clark [00:07:08]:
Probably would. Now, I say that because I love writing so much.
Mark Clark [00:07:11]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:07:11]:
The question is, because I speak, I'm kind of like, I have this romantic vision of me not preaching. I'm just like, ah, that's the bane of my existence. I wonder, after like two months, will I be like, I got. I gotta preach?
Brad Lomenick [00:07:26]:
I think you would probably be okay because writing is your.
Mark Clark [00:07:31]:
I love it.
Brad Lomenick [00:07:31]:
The thing that you look forward to the most.
Mark Clark [00:07:33]:
It's so therapeutic and it's so. And I love. You know, when I was a kid, I read around. In grade 12, I can remember, I read Tale of Two Cities by Charles Dickens. And that was one of the first times. I mean, obviously we're all reading Shakespeare in like grade nine or whatever, but that was me the first time. I went, oh, writing is like more than just like words. It's like, it's.
Mark Clark [00:07:57]:
It's how to craft the words. There's an art form. There's. There's great writers and then there's like just writers. And so in my. I'm like, I want to try to bring ideas, but I want to try to write it well too. And I just love that process, the artistic process.
Brad Lomenick [00:08:11]:
And you like the writing, probably the writing part of teaching, right? I mean, because you're writing your sermons, obviously.
Mark Clark [00:08:17]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:08:18]:
So that.
Brad Lomenick [00:08:18]:
That's another writing outlet for you.
Mark Clark [00:08:19]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:08:20]:
I definitely like writing books more than sermons. And I'm writing sermons probably different now than I was. I was probably writing them a lot more in the early days, transcript wise. I mean, I still transcript, but it's like notes, like just, you know, four or five pages of stuff. Whereas I Used to really sketch it out.
Brad Lomenick [00:08:39]:
Are you going to keep. Are you, by the way, Problem of Life? Yeah. Recently out.
Mark Clark [00:08:43]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:08:44]:
Came out in February.
Mark Clark [00:08:45]:
Yeah.
Brad Lomenick [00:08:45]:
Last couple months. You become the problem guy, by the way, the problem.
Mark Clark [00:08:49]:
Lots of problems.
Brad Lomenick [00:08:49]:
You're the problem guy.
Mark Clark [00:08:50]:
Here's the funny. Okay, so why he's saying that is because I have. The first book that came out was called the Problem of God, then the Problem of Jesus and the Problem of Life. So the funny thing is about this title. So the original book, actually, I don't think I've ever told this story. Not that it's an exciting story. I'm setting that up like I'm about to say breaking news, breaking news. Everybody on the golf course.
Mark Clark [00:09:12]:
It's like we're listening to these John.
Brad Lomenick [00:09:14]:
He just did a Cigarette or Cigar earlier.
Mark Clark [00:09:15]:
Yeah, it's funny. We're listening to these John Maxwell stories, and you realize how lame our stories are because he's like, okay, so Jack, Nicholas and I were on Shout out.
Brad Lomenick [00:09:23]:
To Maxwell, who was here speaking at the conference.
Mark Clark [00:09:25]:
Exactly. Amazing. So it is. It's not that exciting. But so the book, the first book is. Is kind of a. It's kind of like a Reason for God. Keller.
Mark Clark [00:09:35]:
Kind of, you know, 10 big questions against Christianity. I grew up as a skeptic, so it was kind of. So.
Brad Lomenick [00:09:40]:
And you're. That's the. That the premise of the. Of the series is you're. You're sort of writing to the skeptic.
Mark Clark [00:09:45]:
Yes. Yes. Especially the first book, Problem of God. So it was originally called Something Else. I forget what it's called. My whole writing process was. It was called Something Else. In fact, when I put the manuscript to Donnervan and, you know, they said, yeah, this is great.
Mark Clark [00:09:59]:
And it was called like a skeptics forum or something like that. Something more on the nose. And then someone. Right. Just before it was published, just before we did cover, sent me just one of. My fellow pastor sent me this text. It was a quote from Tozer, an amazing quote where he says something I should have memorized. It says something like, you know, the.
Mark Clark [00:10:21]:
The great problem that all humankind will have is when they stand before the God of heaven and earth or whatever, and they have to answer the problem of God or something like that. It's a Tozer quote.
Mark Clark [00:10:30]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:10:31]:
So I was like, dang, that's a good. That's a good title. So I titled the book that with that quote on the back, giving credit. Plagiarizing. Yeah. But the funny thing is, so. So obviously the. It's the play on the word problem.
Brad Lomenick [00:10:44]:
Like.
Mark Clark [00:10:44]:
Like the math equation. Like it's a problem.
Mark Clark [00:10:46]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:10:47]:
But people are. I don't. There's no problem with God.
Brad Lomenick [00:10:52]:
That's not even my point.
Mark Clark [00:10:53]:
It's not the point with. Anyways. Right, right. So anyway. So it's kind of a play, obviously, on. Yes, the question of God is a problem. Like, you got to figure it out. But it's also a math problem, you know, whatever.
Mark Clark [00:11:05]:
So.
Mark Clark [00:11:06]:
So that up to the problem guy. Yeah. So the latest one's problem of life.
Mark Clark [00:11:09]:
Yeah.
Brad Lomenick [00:11:09]:
And is this the.
Mark Clark [00:11:10]:
The.
Brad Lomenick [00:11:10]:
The third in the series or.
Mark Clark [00:11:11]:
I think it's the third in the series, but it's probably the last in this.
Brad Lomenick [00:11:14]:
That's what I mean, the trilogy.
Mark Clark [00:11:15]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:11:16]:
Yeah, I think it's done. Yeah. So the thesis of it is basically John Calvin in the opening line of the institute says there's basically wisdom in. As much as we got to figure it out is that we're. There's only two things we have to figure out, the knowledge of God and the knowledge of ourselves. So my thing, my elevator pitch, is basically, if the first two books were about God.
Mark Clark [00:11:39]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:11:40]:
This one's about ourselves. We have to figure out ourselves, what is the human identity, purpose, joy, experience, death, suffering, all of it. And so the whole book just basically goes into, you know, all of those.
Brad Lomenick [00:11:51]:
Timing couldn't be better for you to provide an answer on that perennial question because so many people are navigating those exact things.
Mark Clark [00:12:00]:
Yeah.
Brad Lomenick [00:12:00]:
Whether you're in the church or not. Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:12:02]:
It's a very human kind. It's a very human book. Like, the opening. The opening whole section is about the longing, you know, that we have Very, very kind of a. C.S. lewis like, you know, weight of glory kind of stuff. Like, why do you have this longing? Why do you hate injustice? Why do you hate racism? Why do you long for a better universe? It's because, you know the universe is broken because you have a longing for God. Da, da.
Mark Clark [00:12:24]:
The whole book opens with the story about me telling. I'll tell this for your listeners. So the day you've heard this story before, the day I told a woman that her husband was dead and I had the wrong guy.
Brad Lomenick [00:12:36]:
This is great.
Mark Clark [00:12:37]:
It's great, but it's crazy. So I was 29 and very. And it's every part of his Jewish. I was 29 years old, and. And I'm. I'm like one of the pastors of the church, and we're supposed to do these hospital visits. And so I went and visited this Guy. Dave on a Friday.
Mark Clark [00:12:52]:
I went home for the weekend. Monday morning, I'm going to the church office. I'm like, oh, I should go visit Dave again. So I go to the hospital, walk right past the nurse's station, walk right into the room, and I see this dead body. And it's kind of staring out the window. It looks all gray and whatnot. And as I'm walking up to it, the nurse turns me around and says, oh, what are you. What are you doing? I said, oh, I'm.
Mark Clark [00:13:13]:
I'm here to, you know, do a. A pastor visit. She's like, oh, he. He's dead. He died this morning. And I'm at the same bed as I was on Friday. And so I'm like, oh, that's Dave. So I don't even say.
Mark Clark [00:13:24]:
I just say, oh, am I supposed to tell the family? She's like, no, the. The doctor's telling the family. Now, if you're a leader and you're wondering how to do these visits, when someone says, you know, they're dead, say who? You know, who's who? Who are we talking about? Name them. So I didn't. I just went home. Anyway, so I went to my office. I told my. Told my.
Mark Clark [00:13:43]:
The secretary lady there. I'm like, oh, Dave's dead. And an hour or two later, his wife comes by the office. She's visiting the church, picking something up. And. And. And the secretary, I don't think. I don't think she knows.
Mark Clark [00:13:55]:
And I said, what? Send her back here. So she comes back to my office, and I said, oh, I'm sorry. I was with. I went to visit Dave this afternoon. She's like, oh, I was there this morning. And I'm like, oh, yeah, no, he's passed away. They told me he's dead. And she passed out in my office, and I put her on the couch, and we sat there and we mourned the death of Dave for an hour before I went out to get her a glass of water.
Mark Clark [00:14:18]:
And I heard the secretary talking about a whole other hospital. And I'm like, wait, Dave was at this hospital? They're like, no, he was at the. And I'm like, wait, what? And so we called Dave, make sure he was alive. And I went back in, of course. And I'm like, hey, remember that thing we were talking about? You know, not true. Anyways, she didn't find the humor in it at all. Honestly, Satan used that in my life in many ways, to go, you're not a good leader. You shouldn't Plant a church because all you're gonna do is hurt people.
Mark Clark [00:14:47]:
We're six months away from planting a church. You don't know what you're doing. You don't know you're playing at this. And I needed people to come around me and go, no, no, no, you're going to be okay because this is about God. This isn't about you. You know. So, yeah, it was, it was crazy. The book opens with that story.
Brad Lomenick [00:15:02]:
That's the opening story.
Mark Clark [00:15:03]:
Because it then asks the question about life and it says, I guarantee. I say, basically, I sometimes wonder what it was like when she went and saw him. Every movement was deeper. Yes.
Brad Lomenick [00:15:14]:
Every laughter thinking that that had been the case.
Mark Clark [00:15:16]:
Yes. And so life took on this much more meaningful thing. And so there's this poem by Elizabeth Barrett Browning, Victorian poet. And she says, every bush is a fire with, with God, but only he who sees takes off his shoes. The rest sit around and pluck blackberries. And so my point is like, I want to be the first kind of person who sees every moment. Every person. You know, Lewis says, you've never met an ordinary person.
Mark Clark [00:15:48]:
Every barista you've talked to, every person in the hall. Every person you meet is going to live forever. They're immortal. Immortal. So are you helping them onto one of those two things? Right. So the whole book is about how do we take life as this meaningful, beautiful, sacred good thing and like pull the most out of it and chase the, the, you know, the, the, the ache in us toward God, in a better world, you know, all of that. So. Yeah.
Brad Lomenick [00:16:12]:
Are you working on something else?
Mark Clark [00:16:14]:
No, I've got a few other. I got a half book written on the argument from beauty, you know, so I might poke into that a little bit. But no, it's almost like, you know, I don't know if you're a movie guy, you're a movie guy.
Brad Lomenick [00:16:28]:
Sort of.
Mark Clark [00:16:29]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:16:30]:
So like when, like Nolan or Spielberg, when they finish a movie, they just kind of go to Hawaii for a bit and they just sit there and they don't think for a while. Yeah, that's kind of the mode I'm in right now.
Brad Lomenick [00:16:40]:
They need to cleanse the palette.
Mark Clark [00:16:41]:
Yeah, it got birthed to the world like three months ago. So now I just need. But then all of a sudden, like in three or four months something will happen and then I'll just. Every night I'll be writing.
Brad Lomenick [00:16:51]:
So we are Thrive conference and it is 2 o' clock in the afternoon. You're. You're teaching in the session tonight.
Mark Clark [00:17:00]:
Yeah.
Brad Lomenick [00:17:01]:
And I, I, I don't want to say this is true, but I think this is true. You're still figuring out what you're going to teach on.
Mark Clark [00:17:07]:
Yeah, a little bit.
Mark Clark [00:17:08]:
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Brad Lomenick [00:17:09]:
Which for a lot of communicators, they would go, what? How does that, how's that even possible? I would have, I would have done all the prep. And this is also a home game for you. This is your church.
Mark Clark [00:17:21]:
Well, actually, the one good thing about it is that it's not. Most of the audience isn't my church. So I can take a few things.
Brad Lomenick [00:17:31]:
You can take stuff you're doing.
Mark Clark [00:17:32]:
You got leaders on this. The sausage is made. I'll take some stuff that I preached three weeks ago, and I'll weave it into some leadership principles from a few verses from a series we were doing in Acts that I think will be helpful, I think.
Brad Lomenick [00:17:46]:
Well, my, my question around this is, is a lot of people, when they're trying to get better at teaching or writing.
Mark Clark [00:17:55]:
Yes.
Brad Lomenick [00:17:56]:
Whatever form of their influence is, they want to, they want to learn from a Mark Clark and go, well, how are you doing it, Mark?
Mark Clark [00:18:01]:
Yeah.
Brad Lomenick [00:18:02]:
So I know that a Sunday or a preaching day, you know, in the rotation is probably different than Thrive Conference.
Mark Clark [00:18:08]:
Sure.
Brad Lomenick [00:18:09]:
But is, what is your, what is sort of your normal rhythm?
Mark Clark [00:18:13]:
Great question. Yeah. Actually, Carrie Newhoff and I, we just recorded a course on this. Yeah.
Brad Lomenick [00:18:19]:
The art of teaching.
Mark Clark [00:18:19]:
The art of.
Mark Clark [00:18:20]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:18:20]:
The art of preaching. And so I think they're gonna release it in the fall. You're part of the whole Kerry Newhoff world, too, right?
Brad Lomenick [00:18:27]:
Part of the empire.
Mark Clark [00:18:28]:
He's awesome. Yeah, the Empire. That's right.
Mark Clark [00:18:29]:
Yeah.
Brad Lomenick [00:18:31]:
He runs pretty much the Christian Leadership podcast.
Mark Clark [00:18:35]:
Yeah. How did we space. Is he our boss?
Brad Lomenick [00:18:37]:
Pretty much. You and I would realize.
Mark Clark [00:18:39]:
Carrie Newhouse our boss. Yeah.
Brad Lomenick [00:18:41]:
You and I would be like, we would be neophytes.
Mark Clark [00:18:45]:
Oh, my gosh.
Mark Clark [00:18:46]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:18:47]:
So we just did a whole section on this in the course on sermon prep. So basically, so what I would say to young communicators or just, just communicators who want to move, my whole thing is like, never settle for being good. You know, good's the enemy. A great kind of thing.
Mark Clark [00:19:01]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:19:01]:
So, and my, and my key to that, other than all the spiritual stuff, you know, the, the Holy Spirit and anointing and all that kind of stuff, it's hard work. And so when I describe my process to people, basically, I look at them and I say, okay, so here's what I do. You know, I work on it. You know, all Week I'm in the cracks, I've got commentaries out and you know we're doing a series on acts right now, right. So if I have Acts 21 to 12 as a passage, like I got all the commentaries, I'm reading at nighttime I'm sitting, my kids are chatting, I'm underlining and penning things up and I got a Google Docs thing open and I'm word of consciousness, just a stream of consciousness, right. Sit out in my hot tub at night on my phone. 80% of my sermons are probably written on my phone at midnight in my hot tub. Just like.
Mark Clark [00:19:43]:
Because I have the text in front of me and I got all the stuff that I've read and I'm just.
Brad Lomenick [00:19:47]:
And is that going into notes app, Google Docs.
Mark Clark [00:19:50]:
Google Docs, yeah.
Brad Lomenick [00:19:51]:
On your phone too?
Mark Clark [00:19:51]:
Yeah, on my phone. Connected, yeah, Google Docs, yeah. So that way I can open up my computer, I can open my phone, anywhere I am, and then I'll be walking and something will happen in a grocery store and I'll go into the Google Doc and lady at grocery store said this.
Mark Clark [00:20:04]:
Yeah, yeah.
Mark Clark [00:20:06]:
So that's just happening. Commentaries, books, writing stuff. Oh, I read that thing in Yancy 20 years ago. Let's put that in there, you know, whatever. So you're doing that and then, and then it used to be Friday. I kind of manuscript the thing out now. More like a Saturday morning I'll manuscript because now I have to preach Saturday night. I didn't have to preach Saturday night till I came here.
Mark Clark [00:20:24]:
Right.
Mark Clark [00:20:25]:
So they have a Saturday night. We have a Saturday night, 5pm so Saturday's now just a write off. Just like. So it used to be Saturday. At about 4 o' clock I'd say goodbye to my family and I'd be done till midnight. I'd be out in my office and I'd take that manuscript that I'd written and usually by Saturday night It would be 10 pages and I'd spend that night getting it down to four and then I would memorize. I'm talking three hours out loud. Every story, every sermon point.
Mark Clark [00:20:52]:
Obsessively dang.
Mark Clark [00:20:53]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:20:54]:
And so actually this gave me an idea to use as an example tonight. Hopefully I can remember that.
Mark Clark [00:21:00]:
Hold on.
Brad Lomenick [00:21:00]:
Get the Google Doc.
Mark Clark [00:21:01]:
Yeah, exactly. So I, you know, I, I have obsessive compulsive a little bit in Tourette syndrome from when I was a kid. And so that has actually served me because I'm, I'm literally obsessed about every turn of phrase, every story land, every point, every Every theological point being, you know, whatever. So that means I preach to a wall for four hours every Saturday night, then I would memorize because I want to make as much eye contact as possible.
Mark Clark [00:21:28]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:21:29]:
So what's happening when I'm up there is I'm taking this page and I'm just flipping it, and I'm seeing the page in my mind's eye, and then I'm running down it, and I'm seeing a yellow highlight for an illustration and a green highlight for a theological point. So I'm getting it down to three or four pages. But what I would just say is, make sure you're. You're preaching it out loud. You're telling the stories. You go over and over, so you're sick of it, like, you don't even want to look at it. Then I go to bed and I'd note it all up, and then I'd wake up in the morning at five o' clock, and I'd do it again. Now we're talking about.
Mark Clark [00:21:58]:
Brad, we're talking about. There's 100 people in my church. Like, I'm not. I'm not preaching to thousands of people. I'm doing all of this work with for a hundred people, by the way.
Brad Lomenick [00:22:05]:
That's a lesson, too.
Mark Clark [00:22:06]:
Yeah.
Brad Lomenick [00:22:07]:
If you're not willing to do it.
Mark Clark [00:22:08]:
For a hundred, why would God give you a thousand?
Brad Lomenick [00:22:10]:
Exactly. Yes.
Mark Clark [00:22:11]:
You know, and so it's like, okay, so I'm doing this work, blah, blah. And then. And then usually when I'm sitting in front of communicators, I tell them that whole process, and they're like, oh. And then I basically say, and the reason you're never gonna be as good as you could be is because you will not put in that work. Right. I can guarantee you're not willing to do the work. Yeah, that's it.
Mark Clark [00:22:31]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:22:32]:
And they all admit it. They're all like, you're right, I have a family. And I'm like, yeah, I know. But.
Mark Clark [00:22:38]:
Yeah. Are you.
Brad Lomenick [00:22:39]:
If you're asking if you want to be great at your craft.
Mark Clark [00:22:42]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:22:43]:
Then you. There's sacrifices. And my wife, amazing woman, she was willing to make that sacrifice. And hopefully my kids don't resent me too much for it, but it was like there was a. Of course I'm not saying sacrifice your family.
Brad Lomenick [00:22:55]:
By the way, on the green and yellow, is that still your. Your. Your same process, the green, like you highlight in green?
Mark Clark [00:23:02]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:23:02]:
Do you have video on your podcast or. No. Is this.
Brad Lomenick [00:23:05]:
I usually don't.
Mark Clark [00:23:06]:
Okay, perfect.
Brad Lomenick [00:23:07]:
Okay.
Mark Clark [00:23:07]:
I Could just pull one up and show the video.
Brad Lomenick [00:23:10]:
Green is a what illustration?
Mark Clark [00:23:12]:
It's a theological point.
Brad Lomenick [00:23:14]:
Oh, theological point.
Mark Clark [00:23:14]:
Every illustration or story is a yellow highlight. Then there's a green, and then there's, like, words. So like a. It'll be like a sentence, and then it'll be. I'll have, like, an underline, and then I'll have a green highlight or a yellow highlight. And that's just my brain over years connecting so that I'm seeing it when I'm preaching and I can make eye contact with the audience versus staring down at my nose.
Brad Lomenick [00:23:34]:
How do you get. How have you gotten really good at landing the person plane? Because so many communicators don't know how to land the plane.
Mark Clark [00:23:40]:
Great question. I don't know that I am great. You know, Maxwell made me feel good last night. He said not. He didn't hear me talk or anything. He didn't know me from all the way. But what he said was, because I'm not. So this was the great thing about doing the course with Carrie.
Mark Clark [00:23:55]:
Right? Me and Carrie are so different. And that. And we play to that. We play. We're both very aware that we're not each other. Like, I just had to speak for him. And Seattle, I was like, sorry, I'm not Carrie Newhoff. Like, you're literally gonna get the opposite talk right now.
Mark Clark [00:24:10]:
And. And so it's great. And he's. He's brilliant. And. And so we got. But the funny. He has all these, like, you know, how to do a great intro and how to do a great hook and how to make these points and how to do these memorable sentences.
Mark Clark [00:24:21]:
And I do none of that. And so I was like, man, maybe this is something I need to. You know. And. And John Maxwell, in this little dinner we were having last night, he said this line that made me feel better. He said, if you're a bad speaker, a great intro will not make you a great speaker. Because after the intro, everyone's like, hey, where'd that guy go? Right? But if you're a good speaker, you don't need a good intro because you're just. You're that good.
Mark Clark [00:24:49]:
Nobody is. I don't know what. And I'm not good in intros. I'm like, I don't. I don't go walk up and be like, it was January 5, 1971, in Munich. It's like, you know, I'm just like, hey, everybody, I'm one of the pastors. We're in the book of acts. All right? Let's just get started, you know, and then we go.
Mark Clark [00:25:10]:
Yeah, it's not a long drawn out. I don't believe in the whole, like. Remember our. These preaching teachers used to go, tell them what you're gonna say.
Mark Clark [00:25:18]:
Right?
Brad Lomenick [00:25:19]:
Say it and tell them what you just said.
Mark Clark [00:25:20]:
And I'm just like, yeah, put a gun in my mouth. Good grief. He's got the time, right? Everyone's marriages are falling apart. This guy's struggling with porn. This marriage. This guy doesn't have any money. These kids are thinking about anxiety, and you're up there. I'm going to say it's like, gosh, get on with it.
Mark Clark [00:25:39]:
Just say you are.
Brad Lomenick [00:25:40]:
You are. I would say, well, you're a great. You're a great teacher of the text. You're a great expositor and a. And a connector of the text. You're also a great storyteller. And that is.
Mark Clark [00:25:54]:
Yeah, I mean, to me, that's.
Brad Lomenick [00:25:57]:
That might be the most important part, in my opinion, of a great communicator, great teacher, a great preacher. Doesn't matter.
Mark Clark [00:26:02]:
And you saw that in Maxwell this week. I was, I was saying, he remind. I don't know if you can say Bill Cosby's name anymore. And that's kind of, I mean, the.
Brad Lomenick [00:26:12]:
Best, the best days of Bill Cosby.
Mark Clark [00:26:14]:
Yes. He was the greatest storyteller in the world. And when I was watching Maxwell this week, you can tell he probably watched Cosby back in the day. I mean, I used to watch Cosby when I was a little kid. And the way he tells the, the stories, it's very like that. And you just go, oh, this is what you remember.
Mark Clark [00:26:29]:
Yes.
Brad Lomenick [00:26:30]:
You know, and, and, and I think having worked for. With John for a few years many moons ago, but still, I would say he would. I think he still would say this. He's actually a teacher who, who, who writes.
Mark Clark [00:26:47]:
Yes.
Brad Lomenick [00:26:47]:
And leads.
Mark Clark [00:26:48]:
Writes every day.
Mark Clark [00:26:49]:
Yes.
Brad Lomenick [00:26:50]:
But he's not. He's not. Like you said, you're a writer probably at your, Your default is writing. I think John is actually a speaker, but he's actually a storyteller, right?
Mark Clark [00:27:00]:
Yes.
Brad Lomenick [00:27:01]:
Like, he would have been. He would have been a great. He could have been a great, Great baseball broadcaster.
Mark Clark [00:27:06]:
100.
Brad Lomenick [00:27:06]:
Because he's on there and he's just. And you feel like you're in the stadium with him.
Mark Clark [00:27:10]:
Yeah, he. Oh, yeah, I know. When I was talking to Nixon this time. What are you talking about?
Mark Clark [00:27:15]:
I know.
Mark Clark [00:27:16]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:27:16]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:27:16]:
It's genius. It's genius.
Brad Lomenick [00:27:17]:
His story.
Mark Clark [00:27:17]:
But got to be able to. And And I tell, I mean, I tell too many stories probably. Like I think when I.
Brad Lomenick [00:27:24]:
But can you, can you actually tell too many? Cuz, Well, I think that's where a.
Mark Clark [00:27:28]:
Lot of, especially some aren't telling enough.
Brad Lomenick [00:27:30]:
Pastors and preachers, they don't tell enough. Yeah, they just go so heady.
Mark Clark [00:27:33]:
Yes. And that's the problem. I, I, and I learned this from a preacher that I won't mention. But another, I mean, it's funny when you look at all these people and you're like, I learned all these things and now they're all a disaster. And you're like, I can't talk. Yeah, exactly. But I remember I would listen to his sermon tapes when I was growing up and I was like, after I become a Christian, I was 19. And I was like, okay, he makes a point, a philosophical point, apologetics, preaching.
Mark Clark [00:28:01]:
But then he roots it in a story like Constant. That's his rhythm. He very rarely makes three or four points without illustrating it. And so that's what I started to do. And I realized it connected with audiences so well. So I could get up and say, you know, they said this line the other day I was preaching and I said, you can't change the world by minding your own business. Right? So I could say that. And then I could rant on and on about that for a long time, or I could immediately go, my wife Aaron was in a coffee shop the other day and she felt God say, I want you to go pray for that homeless guy.
Mark Clark [00:28:39]:
And so she goes over and puts her hand on his shoulder and he's twitching around. And she's used to people twitching because she hangs out with her me ha. You know, and she prays for the guy and she says, what's your story? And he says, you're not going to believe this. I woke up this morning, I was so depressed. I just wanted my life to be over. And I said, God, if you exist, send someone over, put their hand on my shoulder and ask them to ask me the story. And then I say, you can't change the world by minding your own business. Well, you know, if all I did was just rant on about, you can't change the world for, you know, people are like, whatever, you root in a story, you show it in real life.
Mark Clark [00:29:07]:
And my, my thing is to dig into your own. There's, there's something to being like, you know, those classic sermon illustrations, you know, you know, but your own life. Yes, mine out those things and bring them out every week, you know, so.
Brad Lomenick [00:29:21]:
Yeah, A couple more questions. One, you're. How's the golf game?
Mark Clark [00:29:28]:
Good.
Brad Lomenick [00:29:28]:
I hear you're a 5.5.
Mark Clark [00:29:30]:
I'm 5.5. I'm catching up to you.
Brad Lomenick [00:29:31]:
Which for all you people who don't know about golf. Oh, no, you're. You're. You're past me.
Mark Clark [00:29:35]:
Okay. I'm passing. I mean, who knows?
Brad Lomenick [00:29:37]:
I'm not even official anymore.
Mark Clark [00:29:39]:
Okay. I don't even have an official hand.
Brad Lomenick [00:29:40]:
I don't play enough. I only.
Mark Clark [00:29:42]:
I only play the courses that I played with you. You got a great swing.
Brad Lomenick [00:29:45]:
Well, you and I teamed up.
Mark Clark [00:29:46]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Brad Lomenick [00:29:47]:
Team Clark. Lomec, bro. And killed it. We didn't we win something?
Mark Clark [00:29:51]:
I think we win many things.
Brad Lomenick [00:29:52]:
I think we won the flight you were in.
Mark Clark [00:29:54]:
Sure we did.
Brad Lomenick [00:29:55]:
Your listeners won't know. Are you. What. What are the courses right now that you're still going? And as we record, by the way, you know, just. Just know that Mark and Aaron are soon to be on their way to Scotland.
Mark Clark [00:30:07]:
Yes.
Brad Lomenick [00:30:08]:
That's for a bucket list trip that I'm aware of.
Mark Clark [00:30:11]:
You. You helped bring together.
Brad Lomenick [00:30:13]:
No, but what are some of the other courses.
Mark Clark [00:30:15]:
You know what? I. So I'm a member at a course out here. So we got to go out there and play.
Brad Lomenick [00:30:19]:
Okay.
Mark Clark [00:30:20]:
So it's great. So I try to honestly shout out.
Brad Lomenick [00:30:23]:
What's the shout out here?
Mark Clark [00:30:23]:
To the local Granite Bay Golf Club.
Brad Lomenick [00:30:25]:
Granite Bay Golf Club. Shout out. Yeah, shout out to Rick out there. Granite Bay.
Mark Clark [00:30:28]:
Good old Rick. Yep. No, it's. It's a great club. Like, people, like, they got to qualify for the US Open out here. Like, it's a great. It's a. It's a really good club.
Mark Clark [00:30:35]:
And. But it's. I, I'm playing. I try to play every Friday.
Mark Clark [00:30:39]:
Okay.
Mark Clark [00:30:40]:
And I'll try to play as much as I can on Friday. That's my rhythm. But I really to. To make it. I should be playing two or three days a week at this point. The one day a week, if you added up how much I'm paying for it isn't.
Mark Clark [00:30:53]:
It's not.
Brad Lomenick [00:30:53]:
The math didn't work.
Mark Clark [00:30:54]:
The math ain't working.
Mark Clark [00:30:55]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mark Clark [00:30:56]:
But I think it's a season right now. I'm just. I'm in a pretty busy season. It's going to go. We're going to get back to something where I could go play a couple times a week. Right now I'm Once a week.
Brad Lomenick [00:31:04]:
You haven't played Augusta.
Mark Clark [00:31:05]:
I have not played Augusta. If anyone's listening.
Brad Lomenick [00:31:07]:
Come on.
Mark Clark [00:31:07]:
That would change. Podcast Life.
Brad Lomenick [00:31:09]:
Community.
Mark Clark [00:31:09]:
Come on. Community. If you can come together on this, that would be game changer.
Brad Lomenick [00:31:14]:
This is how we're going to change Mark Clark's life.
Mark Clark [00:31:16]:
Right? People would hear about that for decades. Decades. It would be like Blaminix. People came together, they pulled the strings.
Brad Lomenick [00:31:23]:
Well, your old buddy over here still hasn't played either, so.
Mark Clark [00:31:25]:
Oh, man.
Brad Lomenick [00:31:25]:
Man, I don't. You know, it has to be you and I together. We're combo packages.
Mark Clark [00:31:29]:
Make the deal if you get the invite.
Brad Lomenick [00:31:31]:
But you played a lot of other great courses.
Mark Clark [00:31:33]:
Yeah, I mean, pebble was. Yeah, Pebble's probably my favorite. Pebble's probably my favorite place I've ever been actually on Earth.
Brad Lomenick [00:31:39]:
It just. It's such a great golf experience.
Mark Clark [00:31:42]:
Oh, and it was a pouring rain half the time, and I didn't care.
Brad Lomenick [00:31:45]:
No, you don't care.
Mark Clark [00:31:45]:
And then abandoned dunes.
Mark Clark [00:31:48]:
Yes. Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:31:51]:
I took your place on that trip. You guys, you got to know how humble your host is. He was supposed to go, right? It was. You were supposed to go to Ben and you heard I wanted to go, and you said, take my spot. Take your spot. Thank you.
Brad Lomenick [00:32:04]:
Yeah, but, you know, I did. I did go this past fall and. And it was amazing.
Mark Clark [00:32:08]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:32:09]:
How was the weather?
Brad Lomenick [00:32:10]:
Oh, it was sunny every day.
Mark Clark [00:32:11]:
Yeah.
Brad Lomenick [00:32:12]:
We had no rain.
Mark Clark [00:32:13]:
Right.
Brad Lomenick [00:32:13]:
We had.
Mark Clark [00:32:14]:
It started raining on the 18th hole the last day for me.
Brad Lomenick [00:32:17]:
Well, and that's the thing, like everybody says how bad the weather's going to be, but I mean, the wind was just normal.
Mark Clark [00:32:22]:
So we need some wind.
Brad Lomenick [00:32:24]:
I think I shot. I mean, I had a 70, like a 76 on whatever the short course is. Is it sheep?
Mark Clark [00:32:32]:
Oh, sheep ranch or whatever.
Brad Lomenick [00:32:33]:
Yeah, I think that's the short course, but on the harder course. Yeah, it was a nice 97.
Mark Clark [00:32:39]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:32:40]:
Of course, I found Pacific the hardest. But the reason was here was the thing. And I don't know how golf technical your people are here.
Brad Lomenick [00:32:46]:
Well, they're very. Let's assume they are very in on.
Mark Clark [00:32:48]:
Here's what. It took me a while, and this is when I have to make the adjustment when I go to Scotland.
Mark Clark [00:32:52]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:32:53]:
It took me two days to realize, oh, I can't take a divot. It's just hard pan.
Mark Clark [00:32:59]:
Yes.
Mark Clark [00:32:59]:
So I'm trying to hit 52 degree wedges into these thing and I'm sculling the ball 100 yards over the.
Brad Lomenick [00:33:06]:
Get your eight iron out.
Mark Clark [00:33:07]:
Right. And I was mad.
Mark Clark [00:33:09]:
Yes.
Mark Clark [00:33:10]:
And the guy was playing with. Never bothered to go, bro.
Mark Clark [00:33:12]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:33:12]:
No, no, no.
Mark Clark [00:33:13]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:33:13]:
Hit the eight iron. Just roll it Up.
Brad Lomenick [00:33:15]:
Roll it up there like it's a putt.
Mark Clark [00:33:16]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:33:17]:
So it took me two days. I went, oh, my gosh. No wonder I'm.
Brad Lomenick [00:33:20]:
You haven't played the old course, have you?
Mark Clark [00:33:22]:
Take a divot there.
Brad Lomenick [00:33:23]:
No, you can, but it'll probably be. I'm just saying on the first hole. Yeah, there's probably going to be a tear. I mean, it's that. It's that much of an epic experience.
Mark Clark [00:33:33]:
As you nervous even just as you're. As you're walking. If I missed the ball completely, you.
Brad Lomenick [00:33:39]:
The fairway is 800 yards wide.
Mark Clark [00:33:41]:
Literally it's 18.
Brad Lomenick [00:33:42]:
It's 1 and 18 together. If you hit it out of the fairway on. On number one, I'm going to give up. You're. You're. You might as well just put.
Mark Clark [00:33:49]:
Yeah, like, you know what? This is not worth it.
Mark Clark [00:33:51]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:33:52]:
I'm going home and see if.
Brad Lomenick [00:33:53]:
On 17 on the road hole, see if you can just take a second ball and see if you can pop one up there on the fifth floor of that hotel.
Mark Clark [00:33:59]:
Oh, I'm sure.
Brad Lomenick [00:34:00]:
Because that's the one you hit over the hotel.
Mark Clark [00:34:02]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:34:02]:
Well, I play. I play about it. A 15 yard draw. So I gotta start. Can I start it over the hotel?
Brad Lomenick [00:34:09]:
You have to.
Mark Clark [00:34:09]:
Is it far enough away from me? Just like. I'm not gonna hit it. I can get it up quick. Quick enough.
Brad Lomenick [00:34:14]:
Oh, yeah. You can still hit it.
Mark Clark [00:34:15]:
Yeah.
Brad Lomenick [00:34:17]:
You definitely have to start it over.
Mark Clark [00:34:18]:
Oh, yeah, that's that when I saw.
Brad Lomenick [00:34:19]:
Because that is not a.
Mark Clark [00:34:20]:
That's a.
Brad Lomenick [00:34:20]:
That's a. That's a fade hole.
Mark Clark [00:34:22]:
Yeah.
Brad Lomenick [00:34:22]:
It's not a draw.
Mark Clark [00:34:23]:
I can't fade the ball. Can you fade the ball?
Brad Lomenick [00:34:25]:
Oh, yeah.
Mark Clark [00:34:25]:
I hit a natural fade and so.
Mark Clark [00:34:28]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:34:28]:
Am I screw. Like. But I'm fine. I mean, it's link stats. There's no trees.
Brad Lomenick [00:34:32]:
You got. You got as much as much room as you want.
Mark Clark [00:34:34]:
Problems everywhere.
Brad Lomenick [00:34:35]:
You're just gonna. You're gon over there in the.
Mark Clark [00:34:37]:
Yeah.
Brad Lomenick [00:34:37]:
In the, in the, in the, in the. Gnarl.
Mark Clark [00:34:40]:
Okay. Whatever they call it.
Brad Lomenick [00:34:41]:
Something.
Mark Clark [00:34:42]:
It's never. I've never been. I've been to. I've been to Israel, I've been to Turkey. I've been to these great places. India. I've never been to like the uk. Like, I've never just sat around the UK and gone to a pub and.
Mark Clark [00:34:58]:
Oh my gosh. I'm serious.
Brad Lomenick [00:34:59]:
This never changed your life.
Mark Clark [00:35:00]:
I know. Like, and, and now in Scotland, should I just like hang out a couple days and in the uk Like London and go to like, CS Lewis's little All the above bar and like all this stuff. Like what?
Brad Lomenick [00:35:10]:
Well, you got.
Mark Clark [00:35:11]:
Not even there anymore. I think they sold it.
Brad Lomenick [00:35:12]:
No.
Mark Clark [00:35:13]:
The White Horse or whatever. They shut it down.
Brad Lomenick [00:35:14]:
Well, you need to go to Oxford.
Mark Clark [00:35:16]:
Yes.
Brad Lomenick [00:35:16]:
And hang out at the.
Mark Clark [00:35:18]:
At the.
Brad Lomenick [00:35:18]:
Whatever it's called the Claw and the. In the. It's where all the.
Mark Clark [00:35:21]:
Yeah, the.
Brad Lomenick [00:35:22]:
Where all The Inklings.
Mark Clark [00:35:23]:
Yeah.
Brad Lomenick [00:35:23]:
C.S.
Mark Clark [00:35:24]:
Lewis and others saying. I think they shut it down or something.
Brad Lomenick [00:35:26]:
Well, it's been closed for renovation.
Mark Clark [00:35:28]:
Okay. Okay. But still, Oxford is Wing. Well, I get confused because they. They had a nickname for it called the Bird and the Baby there you. Because it was called the Eagle and the Child. Eagle and the Child.
Brad Lomenick [00:35:39]:
But there's a great. There's actually a great pub right across the street.
Mark Clark [00:35:42]:
Okay, that's.
Brad Lomenick [00:35:43]:
That's just as good. And you can. You can look into the Eagle and the Child.
Mark Clark [00:35:46]:
Yeah. Just kind of.
Brad Lomenick [00:35:47]:
But Oxford's. Oxford.
Mark Clark [00:35:48]:
You should.
Brad Lomenick [00:35:49]:
You should do a day trip to Oxford.
Mark Clark [00:35:50]:
But if I go there, I might be like, you know, I should. Because originally my idea was to. The reason I was moving to Vancouver was to do a PhD at Oxford.
Mark Clark [00:35:58]:
Oh.
Mark Clark [00:35:59]:
Master's degree at Regent College in Vancouver. And there was a connection to Oxford where if you did your master's degree in Vancouver, then you do your PhD at Oxford. Which I. This why I was in Vancouver. So when I showed up there, everyone's like, how long you be here? I said, three years. I'm going to write a thesis here and then I'm going to move to Oxford. If I go there, I might be like, maybe I should do this PhD.
Brad Lomenick [00:36:19]:
This is the fulfillment. This. The trip. This is the trip.
Mark Clark [00:36:21]:
It's going to start here. I love the people here. I love the sunshine here. I had 18 years of rain. I'm. I'm good for a while. Well, I'm going to fund in Scotland, I think any.
Brad Lomenick [00:36:32]:
As we wrap up. Leadership. Leadership.
Mark Clark [00:36:34]:
Oh, yeah, we're talking about leadership.
Brad Lomenick [00:36:36]:
Well, this is all leadership.
Mark Clark [00:36:37]:
Oh, yes, definitely.
Brad Lomenick [00:36:39]:
Especially golf.
Mark Clark [00:36:39]:
Sure. This will make the final cut.
Brad Lomenick [00:36:41]:
What's. What's your. What's your. You know, if you're talking to a. An upcoming leader, what's. What's the one thing that you would say?
Mark Clark [00:36:50]:
Here's what I would say. So I did this interview with this guy named CJ Works for us yesterday.
Brad Lomenick [00:36:54]:
Alvarado.
Mark Clark [00:36:55]:
Yes.
Mark Clark [00:36:55]:
Great dude. And he's writing a book right now, which I think is genius. We're going to publish it, I think, called Win the Room.
Brad Lomenick [00:37:00]:
Yes.
Mark Clark [00:37:01]:
Have you. Has he talked to you about this thesis?
Brad Lomenick [00:37:03]:
I love this idea.
Mark Clark [00:37:04]:
I love it. That basically, if you're in an organization, you're trying to get in the room, you're not in the room. And if you're in the room, you got to stay in the room. It's a basic idea. And he says this thing that I think is genius. He says, if you're a young leader, meaning you're any leader. Actually, if you're any leader in the organization, not the top person, you should be asking yourself, what can I do? What keeps my supervisor awake at night that I can solve. What keeps my boss awake at night that I can solve? Because your job is not to sit around and go, my boss didn't develop me.
Mark Clark [00:37:39]:
This organization sucks. I'm leaving. It's like, shut up. What if you went, man, my boss is staying awake at night because he's trying to figure out this tech thing. And I kind of know a guy who could solve that, actually. And you're going in, and you're solving problems in an organization, you will always. Everyone will want you in the room.
Brad Lomenick [00:37:55]:
Yes.
Mark Clark [00:37:55]:
It's like, where'd that guy go? Yes, we need him.
Mark Clark [00:37:58]:
Yeah.
Brad Lomenick [00:37:58]:
What's his name again?
Mark Clark [00:37:59]:
And it doesn't matter where you work in the org chart.
Mark Clark [00:38:01]:
No.
Mark Clark [00:38:02]:
If you're solving problems, you're there to serve people.
Mark Clark [00:38:05]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:38:06]:
Then you'll be fine and you'll advance. But if you're sitting around going, oh, that's not my. That's not my Enneagram profile helping other, you know, what are you doing?
Brad Lomenick [00:38:15]:
Don't wait.
Mark Clark [00:38:16]:
Don't wait. Yeah, don't wait. That's great. Anyway, that's my thing that pops off top of my. My head. So good.
Mark Clark [00:38:20]:
Yeah.