Kevin Thompson [00:00:00]:
Foreign.
Mark Clark [00:00:03]:
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Mark Clark Podcast. So good to have you here. We are interviewing today the great Kevin Thompson, everybody. I was gonna say Dr. Not. But you're not a doctor.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:15]:
No. Either am I. I feel like my career has peaked on the Mark Clark Podcast.
Mark Clark [00:00:20]:
Wow. And we're talking about doctory things. I'm faking it. We're talking to our fake doctor friend. No. He is a very well read, very experienced person in the realm of marriage and counseling and all things to help you in your relationships. Single, dating, married, divorced, remarried, whatever it is.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:39]:
All of it.
Mark Clark [00:00:40]:
Kevin Thompson's your man, everybody. Good to have you on the podcast.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:43]:
Thanks for having me.
Mark Clark [00:00:43]:
Yeah, absolutely.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:44]:
We do actually like each other.
Mark Clark [00:00:46]:
Like each other. We do. We'll see how that. We'll see how we feel by the end. It's true. But we do like each other there. For those of you who don't understand, there's a little feud between Kevin and I at our church. We try to one up each other constantly, which is very hard when I'm talking to such a talented man as yourself.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:02]:
We going to do this.
Mark Clark [00:01:03]:
The whole pastor to church in Arkansas.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:06]:
You know where Arkansas is?
Mark Clark [00:01:07]:
Yeah, yeah, I do.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:08]:
On a map. I'm pretty sure I name two states at.
Mark Clark [00:01:11]:
That's around it. Oh, that. That might up. So it's south of. It's more south than south of Virginia. Right, right. Hold on. You got Virginia.
Mark Clark [00:01:19]:
It's south of Virginia. So you got Oklahoma, Arkansas, Georgia, that whole Mississippi, all that. Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:25]:
You're pretty close. But Virginia is way off.
Mark Clark [00:01:28]:
That's too north. Oh, yeah, because that's right on the. Oh, okay.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:32]:
Virginia is way east.
Mark Clark [00:01:33]:
Okay, man.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:34]:
And the south is. The south is a little entertaining television right now.
Mark Clark [00:01:37]:
Yeah. People are like Arkansas.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:40]:
Welcome to the geography podcast with Mark Clark.
Mark Clark [00:01:43]:
So you. So. So we work together at Bayside Church and you're a writer and you produce some great work and you've written how many books now?
Kevin Thompson [00:01:51]:
A few. It's hard to. It depends on how you count. Six or seven.
Mark Clark [00:01:54]:
Okay, six. Seven, as the kids say. Oh.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:57]:
Oh, look at you.
Mark Clark [00:01:58]:
Yeah. Now what? Why? What do you mean? There's a distinction. Well, like little one of them doesn't count.
Kevin Thompson [00:02:02]:
Well, y' all had me do a like a 30 day devotional a couple years ago. Does that count or not? I don't know.
Mark Clark [00:02:08]:
You're not talking about the one that we just killed for the. For the campaign that you.
Kevin Thompson [00:02:11]:
Yeah, Replace. You replace. One word of it. We replace with Bob Gol.
Mark Clark [00:02:16]:
Got better stuff than that probably so that's not your six seven. There's a. Okay. 30 day. Okay. That'd be cool. That'd be cool. And so what your what are your other ones?
Kevin Thompson [00:02:25]:
Other ones are partners, lovers and yeah. Friends Friends part. You might want to start with friends, friends, partners and lovers. Okay. Happily Happily fearless families. Stay in your lane.
Mark Clark [00:02:37]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:02:38]:
Hope scrolling the devotional U turn was my first book ever written on.
Mark Clark [00:02:41]:
What's that one about?
Kevin Thompson [00:02:42]:
It's primarily for college students. About the places in life you might get stuck pastorally. I see that kind of happen. That's cool.
Mark Clark [00:02:50]:
Is it up to date decision making? People should still read it.
Kevin Thompson [00:02:53]:
I. I think it's still read U.
Mark Clark [00:02:54]:
Turn for all the college kids out there looking for.
Kevin Thompson [00:02:56]:
Why are you turn.
Mark Clark [00:02:57]:
Why? I see what you did there. I see what you did there. You turned. Y Got it. Love it. Well your latest is love styles and if. If there's anything that pops into someone's mind when they look at you. Style.
Mark Clark [00:03:12]:
Welcome to the love styles. I feel like I need a cigarette and some some sunglasses for this interview.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:18]:
The two least words you would ever.
Mark Clark [00:03:20]:
Associate with with Kevin Thompson. Yes, love and styles. But it's awesome actually. I love the book. I read the book. Why you love the way you do and how to change it. And the. When you buy the book which you should go on Amazon and buy it, there's like four.
Mark Clark [00:03:34]:
Four images. There's a heart probably can't. Oh yeah, right here. Heart with a. With a little lock. There's a. There's a heart with like a monitor and then there's a heart with sunglasses and then there's a really confused heart. So first thing I want you to do is is explain why kind of explained.
Mark Clark [00:03:49]:
It's based on attachment theory. So explain attachment theory real quick and then explain what these four symbols mean because I found these symbols super helpful as I was reading the book.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:00]:
So attachment theory from psychology basically says the way our needs were met in the first two, three years of life primarily shapes how we view ourselves, others and God. And so from a Christian standpoint we can see how. How this really ties in the reality that we all have needs. None of us were raised by perfect parents, clearly. So none of us were loved perfectly. Which means it create wounds in our lives. And the problem is it's not just that it wounds us, it actually begins to shape us and how we view ourselves others, our own needs. And so people come up with different approaches.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:32]:
And so there is these four. The one with a lock is the idea of a Secure approach that a secure approach is. It's a healthy way to relate to others. I think in all likelihood, you have many secure relationships in your life where you recognize, I have my own needs. I'm different from this other person. I don't have to have their love. I appreciate their love and I expect that they can help me with my needs. But if they don't, it's not an indictment on me.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:54]:
I'm not unworthy in some way.
Mark Clark [00:04:55]:
Secure, secure love.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:57]:
It's just a very appropriate adult way that we would approach relationships.
Mark Clark [00:05:01]:
You're not, you're not intimidated by people. You're not working out of insecurity. But I got to. I need them to fail. It's like, yes, all those things and you're. This, this isn't relationship. This is any. This is a relationship.
Mark Clark [00:05:12]:
Work.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:12]:
Work.
Mark Clark [00:05:13]:
This is family. This is.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:14]:
Okay, yeah, I meant to bring it today. I forgot. Maybe I can look it up. I actually did a little survey on me and you on the relationship that we have.
Mark Clark [00:05:20]:
Oh, you did a sur on me and you but then kept it to yourself?
Kevin Thompson [00:05:23]:
Yes. Didn't bring it to the Mark Clark podcast.
Mark Clark [00:05:26]:
He just sits there and reads it at night.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:29]:
So. But yeah, so most people have at least one secure relationship in their life if they have a dog.
Mark Clark [00:05:35]:
Okay.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:35]:
Because let's face it, you just went through this. I was with you backstage when your dogs were not acting appropriately. Right. Your girls were out of town, your dogs were tearing things up. They wouldn't come inside. But in that moment, whenever, whenever you get home and your dog has torn up a pillow, you don't walk in and take that personally and then give the dog the silent treatment for the next two weeks to try to.
Mark Clark [00:05:55]:
I might have done that, but it's not the way to deal with it.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:58]:
Maybe you have a non secure attachment with your dog. So we don't. You're like, that's a dog. Like, that's.
Mark Clark [00:06:02]:
Yeah, it's a dog.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:03]:
What happens? It's life. That's a very secure approach. Well, the reality is, because we've had needs that have gone unmet, we haven't been loved perfectly, that we can't have these non secure approaches. And so the three other icons that.
Mark Clark [00:06:17]:
You see there, the one with a little heartbeat, Anxiety. More of an anxious attachment.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:22]:
So an anxious attachment is just simply. This is that I've experienced the goodness of love and I'm terrified of losing it. And so I almost have an autopilot now that is so attuned to thinking or seeing any sense of distance and then making sure that we draw you close. But the problem with that is sometimes I can read into some things that aren't really there. So let's say we're in a relationship. You walk in one day, and you're tired. You just didn't sleep well. And I see a look on your face of a weariness.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:55]:
An anxious attachment would look at that, and I would think, what did I do? He wasn't his jovial self whenever he greeted me in this moment. Is there something that I did? So I'm actually weeding into something that may or may not actually be there. And I'm gonna try to close the gap, because if you distance yourself from me, I feel threatened.
Mark Clark [00:07:13]:
So is this a. So you might have. That you might have an anxious attachment relationship with me. So when you see me being weary, you immediately think that. But what if Morgan or somebody else walked in the room? So what? You have a different attachment with her.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:30]:
Yes.
Mark Clark [00:07:30]:
So your attachment with her might be secure. So you don't think that I'm quicker. Every person in your life, you have these attachments with.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:38]:
Yes. And this is a huge thing. Dan Siegel down at UCLA makes this point because some others who have done attachment theory work, they will just talk about what your style is. This is what you are, and then.
Mark Clark [00:07:47]:
They will assume the title of your book.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:48]:
Yes, but as if it's one thing. They will assume that. Well, so I have a more anxious pathway just in general in life.
Mark Clark [00:07:56]:
You. You do?
Kevin Thompson [00:07:56]:
I do, yes. But I can have secure relationships. And so you want to look at attachment theory and your love style with. What is it with this specific relationship? And not just assume that every relationship is the same. And so anxious is that idea of, I'm afraid of losing you. So actually, at times I will hold back out of fear that if I really put my full heart on the table, that might be too much for you, and you might leave me. So with anxious attachment, the great fear is abandonment. Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:23]:
So the next icon with the cool sunglasses is avoidant.
Mark Clark [00:08:26]:
Avoidant.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:26]:
It projects very strong sunglasses are saying.
Mark Clark [00:08:30]:
Because I remember one person read into that symbol and said, oh, that looks like they're cool. Everything's cool. And your whole point is, no, you can't see the eyes.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:37]:
That's the distance.
Mark Clark [00:08:38]:
You're trying to distance.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:39]:
You're projecting something.
Mark Clark [00:08:41]:
What's it called? What's that style called again?
Kevin Thompson [00:08:42]:
So it's avoidance.
Mark Clark [00:08:43]:
Avoidance.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:44]:
Yes.
Mark Clark [00:08:44]:
Right. So I'm wearing my. I'm Jack Nicholson. I'm wearing my. I don't Want you to see my eyes because you're going to read into my insecurity in my life that I'm a messed up person.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:51]:
Exactly. So avoidant is this idea of I felt the pain of love and I don't want to feel that again. So I'm actually going to keep intimacy at a little bit of a distance because if I let you too close, you might realize I'm not worthy enough, I'm not good enough. And so basically I'm not going to. I'm not going to desire intimacy because intimacy to me is suffocating. Think about the old idea of, with marriage, it's the old ball and chain. That's an avoidant approach. It's assuming now that marriage is going to be so demanding of me and it's going to limit my life and my freedom.
Kevin Thompson [00:09:24]:
Right. So somebody with an anxious.
Mark Clark [00:09:26]:
It totally does, by the way, if you're thinking about getting married.
Kevin Thompson [00:09:28]:
So somebody with an anxious pathway is going to think life is found in the relationship no matter what. Right. Someone with an avoidant pathway is probably going to think life is actually found in me as an individual. Right. As long as I can be my own man, I don't need anybody. And then finally you have this idea of disorganized. And disorganized oftentimes is the byproduct of maybe abuse or neglect, addiction in a home. It could be mental health issues among the parent or also among the child.
Kevin Thompson [00:09:55]:
Could be an undiagnosed learning disability among a child that the parent doesn't see, which causes friction in the relationship.
Mark Clark [00:10:00]:
What's it called? Chaotic.
Kevin Thompson [00:10:01]:
Disorganized.
Mark Clark [00:10:02]:
Disorganized.
Kevin Thompson [00:10:03]:
And so what happens there is you.
Mark Clark [00:10:05]:
Come up with these phrases.
Kevin Thompson [00:10:06]:
No, these are, these are. You use psychological ideals. Right. And so with disorganized, you're going to experience the extremes of both anxious and avoidant with a lack of predictability. So somebody with a disorganized attachment desperately wants to be loved but is terrified by it. And so you see this in children where, especially if there's been abuse, they still need the affection of their parent. But to get close to their parents, a dangerous thing. Sure.
Kevin Thompson [00:10:29]:
And so they don't know how to respond or react. And you can really get a good amount of dysfunctional relationships whenever you have this kind of disorganized attachment. So people often talk about the four love styles, and rightly so. I like to look at them primarily as two secure and insecure, secure and non secure. So the desire is for us to develop secure pathways with everybody that we're in relationship with ourselves, others and also God. But we all probably have some tendencies where we can drift into some non secure patterns. And you're more prone to some over than others. Now I can be anxious and avoid it.
Kevin Thompson [00:11:04]:
I really can't. I don't think I'm disorganized. I can do both. But I'm primarily more anxious. I'm more anxiously attached to you than I am avoidantly attached. I think you're securely attached to me.
Mark Clark [00:11:17]:
I think you're securely attached.
Kevin Thompson [00:11:19]:
I'm safer.
Mark Clark [00:11:20]:
Why? Why is that? So you think I'm that way with.
Mark Clark [00:11:27]:
When you observe me in the office place or whatever. What is your assessment of my style with people?
Kevin Thompson [00:11:34]:
I think if we went general pathways, you tend to be more secure where I tend to be more anxious. So you tend. And this is going to break down the projection that many people have of Mark Clark in that you are extremely empathetic and caring, compassionate toward other people. That's a side, that's a side that.
Mark Clark [00:11:53]:
Most people want to hear.
Kevin Thompson [00:11:54]:
Right. But let's face it, you are not moved by my frustration. It doesn't bother you in any way whatsoever. You're like, I'm going to do my thing, it's not a big deal, he'll get over it. That's his problem. Right. So you have a good idea where you're empathetic toward me, but at the same time you don't take on my emotions and allow them to impact yourself.
Mark Clark [00:12:15]:
That's a very healthy, secure approach.
Kevin Thompson [00:12:18]:
Whereas if you're unhappy with me, I can feel like I need to manage your emotions. Like oh my goodness, what have I done? How can I make his life easier? I don't want to be too demanding.
Mark Clark [00:12:28]:
You want to make up for it.
Kevin Thompson [00:12:29]:
He might leave me in some way.
Mark Clark [00:12:31]:
So where does that come from in your story? Well, and you're not that way with everybody though. You're, you're, you, you're not.
Kevin Thompson [00:12:37]:
No.
Mark Clark [00:12:38]:
You're generally an anxious style.
Kevin Thompson [00:12:39]:
Generally more anxious. I think, I think I'm actually more secure with you than I am some of our other co workers because I, I am more honest with you and I deal with it.
Mark Clark [00:12:47]:
But that's come over time with the. Yeah, we've gone out for dinners, we has things out, yell at each other, we move on. So there's been one yell. But yeah, I don't yell. That's just my default volume though. So. But, but you, you've, you've experienced something over time that maybe has evolved. Like it might not have been that day one.
Kevin Thompson [00:13:08]:
So here's the great thing is you're not stuck in these styles. While these are formed, we all have. They form the autopilot is. The way that I describe it is basically, we make assumptions about life and we go through life in that way. We don't even recognize that we're making those assumptions. It just feels natural to us. Well, where those come from is our families of origin. This is how we survived and it worked and we were able to navigate what we experienced.
Kevin Thompson [00:13:35]:
But the problem then becomes whenever we just begin to apply that to every area of life and think this is how life actually works, and that's not how it works. The good news is why I don't naturally have a secure pathway. You can actually learn security. And that's the power of where the book is, that by the time you get to chapter five, wherever you've landed on what your primary pathways are, different relationships. We can now learn what does it mean to be secure in this relationship. And what's happened is my relationship with Jenny, the trust and respect that was built over time.
Mark Clark [00:14:06]:
Kevin's wife, yes.
Kevin Thompson [00:14:07]:
Empowered, vulnerability, which now has created a secure pathway with her that is now rippled into other people's life. And so in the intro of the book, here's the way I define it. Our greatest wounds in life are most often caused by people who were supposed to love us and didn't. Not strangers, but our family, our parents, our friends. And it's not because they didn't intend to love us or desire, just that life got in the way. But here's how God tends to heal us. He tends to heal us by pouring his love through somebody who didn't have to love us and chose to do so. First and foremost, that's Jesus.
Kevin Thompson [00:14:39]:
But then it's other people. And for me, it's Jenny. And so I dedicate the book to Jenny. And I say that God continues to pour his love through you. And that love is healing me because she's showing me a security that now I can bring to you and I can bring to other people that maybe without her, I wouldn't have experienced.
Mark Clark [00:14:59]:
Right. So some people would say that you're blaming the parents or, you know, because you said something that happened to you when you were three years old or whatever this time frame is defines. And you're not saying you are one of these love styles. It's that these four love styles are different people in your life.
Kevin Thompson [00:15:20]:
They're pathways and they're ways that you can approach relationships.
Mark Clark [00:15:23]:
Right. So you Got to figure out what that is in relationship to your boss and what that is in relationship, your friend, what that is in relationship to your child, what that is relationship to your spouse, whatever. So it's not that you are one style and applies to every single relationship.
Kevin Thompson [00:15:36]:
Correct.
Mark Clark [00:15:37]:
You're going to have different, you can.
Kevin Thompson [00:15:38]:
You can easily have different ones. Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:15:39]:
So, well, this all got stuck when you're three years old. What can you do about it?
Kevin Thompson [00:15:44]:
Yeah, yeah. You're blaming your parents.
Mark Clark [00:15:45]:
That's, that's kind of the criticism of this kind.
Kevin Thompson [00:15:47]:
Oh yeah. Thinking.
Mark Clark [00:15:48]:
No, yeah, it's just basically, oh, well, figure your personality profile out and that's who you are cemented for the rest of. So that's your parents fault.
Kevin Thompson [00:15:55]:
That's how somebody with an anxious pathway would approach this.
Mark Clark [00:15:58]:
Right?
Kevin Thompson [00:15:58]:
Oh, you're blaming your parents. I can't see notice this now. I'm trying to manage how my parents feel like, oh, that would be unfair. I can't do that. Right. Well, but the reality is, look, we've all been shaped in some way and the byproduct of this, again I'm not looking for excuses, we're looking for explanations of why am I that way. Matter of fact, I would say if you read the book and really do the work and the byproduct of that should actually be more empathy. Sure.
Kevin Thompson [00:16:24]:
Toward your parents. Yeah. Because you recognize, oh, they had their own story.
Mark Clark [00:16:28]:
But more the point is not so much about your parents because you know, people don't know your parents. It's like is, does this mean you're stuck?
Mark Clark [00:16:36]:
You're, you know, kind of the psychology critique is psychology is basically saying, well this is any personality profile that you take enneagram, whatever it's like, it pigeonholes you into like this. Well, that's the reason I'm always late is because I'm a six and it's like, no, it's because you're a loser and you don't, you know, whatever. So take us through. Like how does is this like you're cemented as this is who you are?
Kevin Thompson [00:17:01]:
It's the opposite of that. Right? It's the opposite. The reason this is so powerful is because if you do not investigate who you are and how you became you, you will be stuck in that pathway. Right. You'll be stuck in the wounds of the past and living that out, not understanding the brokenness of what's going on. But if you actually do the work to figure out what might have been some needs that were unmet whenever I was small, what Might have been the circumstances that would lead to this then empowers you to begin to change.
Mark Clark [00:17:27]:
Have you ever seen Good Will Hunting?
Kevin Thompson [00:17:29]:
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:17:30]:
What a great. If you were to case study that book through this hermeneutic, it'd be fascinating because his abuse growing up.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:38]:
Yes.
Mark Clark [00:17:39]:
Keeps him away from Sean. I don't want you. You know, I don't want you. And then of course, he breaks down and the hug and the crying and it's not your fault.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:46]:
And notice what happens is he gets to point where he can actually begin to have. I call it a good dependence. So we so often think he tries.
Mark Clark [00:17:55]:
To push Skyler away too. I don't want.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:58]:
I can't let anyone close people who.
Mark Clark [00:18:00]:
Are close to me hurt me.
Kevin Thompson [00:18:01]:
Yeah. That's a great example of primarily an avoidant pathway. Maybe even disorganized because he had a lot of chaos in his life. That would be natural abuse that began to take place. But you can see he's written the idea, my life will be safer if I can be my own man and not depend upon anybody.
Mark Clark [00:18:17]:
Sure.
Kevin Thompson [00:18:18]:
But whenever you live that out, you're actually guaranteeing the very outcome you're trying to avoid, which is the isolation and the loneliness and the sorrow of your own heart, because you do need other people. So I think what Sean taught him was now how to have a secure attachment, right?
Mark Clark [00:18:34]:
Oh, yeah, 100%. And father wounds, and then he goes after the girl. So anxiety obviously is a major part of this because the second one is an anxious attachment.
Kevin Thompson [00:18:46]:
Well, it's an interesting concept. So a lot of people confuse the two. A lot of people confuse anxious attachment with anxiety. And those are different things. And so you can have this basic concept of an anxiety where your brain can get on a loop of some sort where you're thinking about future things that you actually cannot control and that's beginning to negatively hurt your present. Anxious attachment is different from anxiety. Anxious attachment really is. What is the relationship dynamic between us? Now? It's not uncommon for somebody with an anxious pathway to be more prone to anxiety.
Kevin Thompson [00:19:21]:
But those two things are not exactly the same. Right.
Mark Clark [00:19:24]:
So there's three versions of this that would you say the three are unhealthy and the one is good and the one is the goal for all relationships.
Kevin Thompson [00:19:34]:
Is that the thesis we have three non secure pathways that we want to turn into a learned secure.
Mark Clark [00:19:40]:
Is there. Do you present this as exhaustive? Like, you know, people kind of go, yeah, there's a spiritual gift list. But that's not the only Spiritual gift. You know, those aren't the only love languages. There's other ones, but these are the ones we're honing in on. Is this in your research? Like, are there ones that you didn't include in here? Are there like eight of them that are.
Kevin Thompson [00:20:03]:
I don't know. That's possible. I think it is important to recognize attachment theory is one thing that we bring to the table in relationships, but it's not everything. We do have personalities. Matter of fact, when I sit at this table doing Change the Odd podcast, which everybody should be on.
Mark Clark [00:20:16]:
Change the odds, guys. You guys got to listen to this podcast. You got a great podcast, Change the Odds. It's called All About Marriage. It's genius.
Kevin Thompson [00:20:23]:
So whenever we look at the creation of us, so what makes Jenny and us? We start with attachment. What are our attachment styles? And how can we create a secure attachment? But we don't stop there. Then we do look. What are our personality?
Mark Clark [00:20:36]:
So what is her style?
Kevin Thompson [00:20:38]:
Oh, Jenny has a very secure pathway.
Mark Clark [00:20:40]:
Secure pathway.
Kevin Thompson [00:20:42]:
Okay, so she has.
Mark Clark [00:20:43]:
Why the word pathway? What is pathway?
Kevin Thompson [00:20:45]:
With this. This idea of it's a road you can go down. So. So you think about how you get to work. You have a general way that you get to work all the time. It's not the only way you could go. You could actually go. Otherwise, why do you go the way that you go? Well, something is in you that has trained you to go in that way.
Kevin Thompson [00:20:58]:
It might be the best way. Maybe it's not the best way.
Mark Clark [00:21:01]:
Totally the best way.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:02]:
So this idea that we have multiple pathways in our lives. We have choices of how we can go down. Dan Siegel uses this illustration. Imagine there's a snow covered hill. You're going to go sledding. You go to the top of the hill, you can sled down anywhere you want. It's just snow covered. So you sled down, you come around, you walk back up.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:21]:
Now you can still go wherever you want to go. Where are you most likely to go? Down the groove you just went. So you go down again, you come back up where you most likely go now. Well, now if you go down that groove, you actually go faster because it's kind of grooved in. Right.
Mark Clark [00:21:32]:
I'm Canadian. I grew up doing this. Yes, you got it.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:36]:
So the 800th time you go to the top of that hill, you can still go down any way you want. Which way are you going? You're going down the way. So that's the idea of a pathway, is that there are these ways that feel natural. To us, that could be helpful in some circumstances, hurtful in others, but left to our own devices, we don't see the difference and we just do what comes natural to us every time and then it ends up creating havoc in our lives and we don't understand why.
Mark Clark [00:22:03]:
So if Jenny's a secure style or pathway, what like, does that mean in all relationships or just with you? Like, how does that.
Kevin Thompson [00:22:13]:
That means that that's her tendency to be that way if you were to meet her, those kind of things. But it does. She still has the ability to go into a non secure pattern. So if she's tired, if there's friction in a relationship, if things are happening within her life that she can still go into a negative way. And you know, I think for her, in some relationships she tends to be a little bit more anxious. Others, she can be pretty avoidant as well.
Mark Clark [00:22:40]:
So why is she so secure? Is it her upbringing?
Kevin Thompson [00:22:44]:
You know, I don't fully know. I mean, absolutely, but it's. I mean, I was about to say she came from a great family. Well, I came from a great family, right. But there were different circumstances, right. There was divorce. That happened early on in my life. And so in all likelihood there are needs.
Kevin Thompson [00:22:57]:
I think about this within my own family. Think about, think about my youngest son. Obviously Jenny and I love him tremendously, right? And yet he's born, he has a sister who's what, three or four years older than him with special needs in his first couple years of life. We live next door to my grandparents. He's very close to them. Both of them die. Jenny's dad gets a brain tumor, he dies within his first five or six years of life, three of the most important people in his life die. And so now we're raising him.
Kevin Thompson [00:23:26]:
Is it possible that he had needs in his life early on that went overlooked not because we didn't love him, but because we were managing his sister with special needs. We had our own business, we had our own church. Jenny's grieving the old loss. I'm dealing with my grandparents. We have all these things and life got in the way. Well, that's going to shape how he views himself, others and God. And so even though he came from a great family, he's going to have to one day kind of walk through this and go, all right, what are the misconceptions I have about love? And a lot of that is that, is this. We come to misconceptions and so we assume because love hurt here, love's always going to hurt in that Way that's not true.
Mark Clark [00:24:08]:
So what would be the least on this spectrum?
Mark Clark [00:24:14]:
I don't know if spectrum is the right word. Probably not. But that you would be the least of these.
Kevin Thompson [00:24:21]:
Probably avoidant is the least. I have the ability to be that. I mean disorganized is hard because it's just anxious and avoidant to the extremes. So I doubt I'm that, but I lean a little bit more anxious than I am. Avoidant, but I have the ability both ways.
Mark Clark [00:24:38]:
So why like, what's the connection? We're the most connected generation of people now just talking about relationships in general with human beings, and yet we're the loneliest.
Kevin Thompson [00:24:52]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:24:52]:
How does that connect to this?
Kevin Thompson [00:24:53]:
Yeah, I think it falls into it in many ways. Because here's what I think happens with think about what has connected us. Right. We're talking about social media, primarily technology.
Mark Clark [00:25:04]:
Yes.
Kevin Thompson [00:25:05]:
Well, the problem is that technology now will exploit.
Kevin Thompson [00:25:09]:
The non secure forms of attachment. So if you have an anxious pathway, you primarily have an anxious pathway. Social media can wreak havoc with you in that you can live in a constant state of observation and allowing how other people are projecting a life and allowing it to impact you. So you might post on social media and begin to look how many people liked it, how many people commented on it. Imagine your world if you lived with an anxious attachment and the comments that you get on social media by people who have no clue who you are or what you're about, just attacking your heart in every way. But if you are more prone now toward an anxious pathway, you're gonna be ruled by their opinions, right? Well, on the other hand, so social media technology exploits that and makes it very unhealthy. So you'll have all these relationships that really probably aren't real. At the same time, it can meet the social needs of somebody with an avoidant attachment while keeping everybody in an arm's distance.
Kevin Thompson [00:26:11]:
So yeah, look at all the connections I have. Yeah, but who mows your yard whenever you're sick? Well, I got nobody. Why is that? Because I've actually kept all these relationships online and just at the proper distance where they just see the perfect curated aspect of who I am and not the reality of my heart. So I think it's very interesting and this is, I think one of the gifts of us understanding attachment theory now is we can begin to see even how we misuse social media. So my anxious, my more anxious pathway. Right. Whenever social media first came out years ago, right. I'm posting, I'm staying in contact with everybody, it Makes pastoring easier and more fun.
Kevin Thompson [00:26:47]:
People start blasting me that really don't know me, they start blasting me and I am ruined by it in part of how can I manage their opinions and how can I make sure they know that's not who I want to be? And literally now it's hindering my own well being as I'm living out this non secure pathway.
Mark Clark [00:27:05]:
Right. Which is true about, I mean anybody, whether you're insecure or whatever pathway you're. You are in, people slamming you is going to be tough.
Kevin Thompson [00:27:15]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:27:15]:
Anyway, which one do you, do you.
Kevin Thompson [00:27:16]:
Think, do you think you lean? I think you're primarily secure but anxious or avoidant. Which one are you more prone to?
Mark Clark [00:27:24]:
It's a good question. There's times I think it's natural to be like, huh, did I, did I frustrate them? And what can I do about that? And oh, they're, they're off or something. Is that my fault? You know, can I do anything about it? I think that's natural. The avoidant one would probably be preemptive in some way. Like I don't, I find myself like I have enough relationships where I don't need a whole bunch more avoidant style. Or if there's a conflict scenario that I'm like. Because I think I'm a. I think the way my brain works, it's relational but it's, it's strategic.
Mark Clark [00:28:07]:
You know, like everything to me is about strategy and I don't mean that like maliciously. Like I'm like me. How do I get something out of this? Just what's going to be the best end result? So I could like sit there in my brain and go, you know, what is, you know, what's virtuous is I should text this person back and tell them xyz or I should make this decision because it's right. But then my strategy brain goes, ah, but if I chill for a little bit, like maybe I'll just make sure I don't meet them for a week or two and things will calm down and then the next time we meet it'll be fine. It's not like a personal thing. It's like. But that'll get us to where we're both wanting to go quicker. So I'm constantly compromising strategically to get to some goal and it's not driven by what's, what's the right thing right now?
Kevin Thompson [00:28:59]:
Well, I think so.
Mark Clark [00:29:00]:
Just I don't know what those are, but there's sometimes avoidance.
Kevin Thompson [00:29:02]:
That's the next book in part because you're, you're getting into now what I would call your lead style. So your love style is literally how do you deal with relationships? Your lead style now is your personality. Right. And those two things now come together to really form the primary aspect of who you are is going to be the combination of your temperament and your attachment. That's going to be. The fullness of your personality is going to be. Temperament plus attachment equals the fullness of your personality. I would say you have a tendency sometimes joking I get, but I think somewhat truthfully is as you're preaching, you will say, I don't care what you think.
Mark Clark [00:29:36]:
Sure.
Kevin Thompson [00:29:37]:
And I'm like, yeah, that's your avoidant attachment.
Mark Clark [00:29:39]:
Avoid. Yeah. Meaning. And so what's my. So, so what he's talking about is in my preaching, I'll, I'll look at the audience and basically say, I don't like people or I don't care about any of you. I can't remember your names or whatever. So what, so what is your, what are you saying psychologically? What am I doing there?
Kevin Thompson [00:29:53]:
To some extent, you're, you're diminishing how much you do truly care for others as a way to protect yourself. From what? From hurt, from judgment, from all those things. Yeah. So. So if you don't care about what they think, maybe they won't actually say the bad things about you or.
Mark Clark [00:30:10]:
Because I won't care.
Kevin Thompson [00:30:10]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:30:11]:
You can email me.
Kevin Thompson [00:30:12]:
Not gonna matter.
Mark Clark [00:30:13]:
Read that email. Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:30:14]:
And you're really trying to cut down the number of email that you get because you do actually care.
Mark Clark [00:30:18]:
I do care.
Kevin Thompson [00:30:19]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:30:20]:
And. But I'm not sure it does help with the amount of emails that you would get if you said something like that. Because some people, they'll send an email about that where they wouldn't have before.
Mark Clark [00:30:33]:
What are you talking about? How do you. Well, you should go do something else then. If you keep telling us you don't like us, why don't you go into another job, you idiot?
Kevin Thompson [00:30:39]:
I mean, that's just the email. I send you those. I mean, that's a whole different thing.
Mark Clark [00:30:42]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:30:45]:
Yeah. That's fascinating. But the psychology of that, where in my brain, I might be trying to do that. I might also be trying to go.
Mark Clark [00:30:57]:
I might be trying to tell the audience. This is sometimes what's in my psychology. Right. And this is this, this sounds virtuous. I'm not trying to be virtuous. I'm just trying to exegete my, my motives.
Mark Clark [00:31:09]:
Oftentimes when I, when I say something What I'm trying to do to the audience is almost give them permission to. For themselves to be okay about something that someone on the stage never represents. So no one from the stage would ever say, I don't like you. Why would they say that? But lots of people are sitting there not liking a lot of people, and they're like, I can't connect to this. This person on the stage is so perfect. And every illustration is perfection and this and this and this. But. But he's almost giving me permission.
Mark Clark [00:31:43]:
It's okay that I don't like people. I don't. I don't know what. You know, there's some people out there. It's like they're not being reached by church because we talk in a certain way or we emphasize certain things, and it's like, oh, thank goodness. He's. I connect with that. He's giving me permission.
Mark Clark [00:31:58]:
Oh, yeah, why don't I like people? That's kind of weird. And then the other part of it is, I think people also can see the twinkle in the eye a little bit. Then I'm kind of being. I'm joking. I clearly love you. I clearly like you. I'm just kind of playing a part. Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:32:13]:
Yeah. And it's a bit of a. Which is why when I. When I get the opportunity to teach preaching, there'll be a room full of preachers, you know, and we're learning, we're exogening kind of like with this principle or that or that methodology or. And it's like the worst thing you could do is take one of my sermons and transcribe it and get up and preach it.
Kevin Thompson [00:32:36]:
Oh, yeah.
Mark Clark [00:32:36]:
It would be awful. Because coming out of your mouth, not yours, but some of these preachers, it would sound awful.
Kevin Thompson [00:32:44]:
Oh, it would sound horrible. If I imagine if I just begin to read Mark Clark lines.
Mark Clark [00:32:50]:
Right. It just doesn't work. But it's the whole thing. It's the whole demeanor. It's the twinkle in the eye. You can kind of see he's being sarcastic. He's joking. And so anyway, all that to say.
Mark Clark [00:33:01]:
It is interesting to try to kind of deduce, you know, the reason you do these things. So I think I have some secure relationships. Obviously, I don't have all of them, or I act with some people like.
Kevin Thompson [00:33:13]:
This, but I can even look at my kids.
Kevin Thompson [00:33:18]:
I can look at my kids and say at times I have a more anxious pathway with one of my children than I do the other.
Mark Clark [00:33:24]:
Sure.
Kevin Thompson [00:33:24]:
And it's a very interesting thing to begin to look At. And I can even think to myself, why you need to parent. What would you do with the other kid? All right, you probably need to do that here, actually, and not based on who they are differently, but based on I need to be the same person.
Mark Clark [00:33:41]:
So let me ask this question, the gender question. Do you think there is a proclivity to men having a particular version of this versus women or women versus men? What do you think the majority of the population's walking around out there?
Kevin Thompson [00:33:56]:
I think the perception is that that's the case. I haven't seen any study that would say that's the case. I would say traditionally, the way we would tell the stories, it's the woman is anxious and the man's avoidant, and that's the way it goes. But I think within that, you do have a lot of cultural expectations that are in as well, because this really isn't necessarily what you're showing as much as what's motivating you and driving you. Sure. And so I think women can be avoidant, more avoidantly attached and still project a care and compassion, whereas I think men can be more anxiously attached, but just hide it well and not show how they're being driven. So whenever we break down on the podcast, we'll break down fights. Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:34:37]:
So people text in the fight. Your podcast.
Mark Clark [00:34:39]:
Change the odds.
Kevin Thompson [00:34:39]:
Yeah, keep on bringing that up.
Mark Clark [00:34:40]:
Yeah, Change the odds podcast. Yes.
Kevin Thompson [00:34:42]:
Yes. And so it's not uncommon at all for me to say, hey, look at how anxious this man is acting in this scenario. Even though we would assume generally it's women are anxious and men are avoidant.
Mark Clark [00:34:53]:
So let me ask you this. I think there's a whole very fascinating world for people to think through that breaks up the stereotypes a little bit between men and women about why is it that men.
Mark Clark [00:35:09]:
Have an attachment to one another.
Mark Clark [00:35:14]:
I'm just going to throw out a thesis that has no psychological study, bearings or whatever.
Kevin Thompson [00:35:20]:
Anecdotally, I'll respond securely to you.
Mark Clark [00:35:22]:
Yes, Men tend to have an attachment to one another, a kind of brotherhood that while we oftentimes think of women as relating to each other in ways that are like, women need each other and dudes are just out there by themselves. What I see experientially sometimes is almost the opposite. Women have relationships and they got a few close ones, but guys tend to gather more, connect more, have these, like, deeper, like friends, whether that's on the golf course or around the poker table, around the fire at night or the army. I'm watching a show right now on Marines. And you're seeing these connections, this attachment that happens. Fascinating. I mean, doing this in regard to things like the military and. Yes, male psychology.
Mark Clark [00:36:19]:
My point being is not that women don't have friendships and depth and attachment. Of course they do. That's kind of the stereotype. It's that men do in ways that we oftentimes don't recognize. And what is going on there? What is that all about? Because these guys can get so connected that it's like, I don't. This is my world, actually. This is. I don't want to leave the war because my bros are still here.
Mark Clark [00:36:41]:
You know, you hear those stories.
Kevin Thompson [00:36:43]:
I think that story is attacking two cultural misconceptions. And the first is this. The first misconception is that women need relationships more than men, which is false. Humans need relationships. Right. And I think the second misconception is this, the belief that women love better than men. We're equally broken, so I think we equally need others, and I think we're equally broken. It's just culturally, we don't see it in those terms.
Kevin Thompson [00:37:12]:
And so I do think. Think about this. When your girls were little, right, you come home from church and you'd open the door and Sienna would run to you.
Mark Clark [00:37:21]:
Daddy, Daddy.
Kevin Thompson [00:37:22]:
Right? You'd catch her, you'd throw over.
Mark Clark [00:37:23]:
They all do it still to me.
Kevin Thompson [00:37:24]:
Still to this day. Yes. Aaron does it now, right?
Mark Clark [00:37:27]:
Is he home? I didn't realize he was home.
Kevin Thompson [00:37:29]:
And they'd be like, dad, come watch me.
Mark Clark [00:37:31]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:37:32]:
And they, you know, they get the dolls out or whatever, right? Here's the thing. We think the reason they do that is because they're immature. The reason they do that is because they're human. They need to be seen, known, valued, loved. That is a human condition that never changes. Now how we experience that does change, right? You're not going to walk into night and Aaron come running to you and you toss her up in the air, right? But she still needs to be seen, known, valued and loved. That's the basic root of the idea of attachment, that we have these needs. It's beyond Freud.
Kevin Thompson [00:38:09]:
You know, Freud believed we just needed to be fed and sexual needs and those kind of things just to propagate the humanity. And no, John Bowlby, Mary Ainsworth are going to come along and say, no, no, you actually have a need to be seen, known, valued and loved by others, primarily. Even your family of origin. And that is not gender specific. That is humanity specific. And so that's why I think you see the bond of a football team the bond of an army. I think that's what you experience around a fire pit on the golf course that is so often overlooked in which we think, oh, well, you know, women. And I think there's another aspect as well.
Kevin Thompson [00:38:42]:
I think men tend to do a better job generically than women of prioritizing some of those things. I'm not gonna give up my round of golf for much. I need it. Jenny is quick to sacrifice.
Mark Clark [00:38:57]:
Is that. Is that the maternal instinct? Like, Because Aaron will do the same thing, mostly for the kids.
Kevin Thompson [00:39:03]:
Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mark Clark [00:39:04]:
Everything becomes like. It's like she'll do. She'll. You know. And she doesn't mind me golfing, but it's like. It'll be like some kid thing or something. I'll be like, she's like, so you're. You know, you're not golf.
Mark Clark [00:39:14]:
Obviously you're not golf. It's like, no, I'll just be late. Like, I'm totally golf. It's Friday. Since it's Wednesday, whatever. It's like, I gotta golf.
Kevin Thompson [00:39:21]:
So.
Mark Clark [00:39:22]:
Right. Is that like a maternal. Like, I'm more quickly willing to sacrifice for the good of this other thing. And guys are like, I could probably do both.
Kevin Thompson [00:39:31]:
I think. I'd love to know your opinion on it, because I think. I think that could be an aspect of it. I also think there's a. There's a set of cultural expectations in there of how quickly Aaron would be judged as a poor mother.
Mark Clark [00:39:42]:
Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:39:43]:
But if you walk in late.
Mark Clark [00:39:44]:
Yeah, it's a guy. He had worked.
Kevin Thompson [00:39:47]:
Think about the difference between this time with the boys. Yeah, yeah, you're there. Aaron walks in late, man. How. How dare she show up late? And Aaron's there and you walk in late, man. What a great dad.
Mark Clark [00:39:59]:
Yeah. He showed up.
Kevin Thompson [00:40:00]:
He got here, and I. So I think part of that. Could that just be that cultural expectation?
Mark Clark [00:40:04]:
Sure.
Kevin Thompson [00:40:05]:
Creates that.
Mark Clark [00:40:06]:
Yeah. It's interesting. All right. Anything else to say on this? This is great. This is great practical help for people in all the relationships. I love how it applies to work and friendship.
Kevin Thompson [00:40:17]:
Well, we'll put in the show notes a very easy assessment. People can take just 13 questions, and they can fill it out. And just on a specific relationship, literally, it's a blank. Whenever Mark pulls away from me, how do I respond? And in 13 questions, they can figure out, in this relationship, am I secure, anxious, avoidant, or disorganized? Here's what the book desires to be. It desires to be the simplest explanation of attachment theory from a Christian perspective. That's out There. So think of, you know, this Mark. I joke around.
Kevin Thompson [00:40:46]:
I do everything with AI on Arkansas intelligence. This book is not going to blow you away.
Kevin Thompson [00:40:52]:
This is not the brightest thing ever, right? It's good.
Mark Clark [00:40:55]:
It's great.
Kevin Thompson [00:40:56]:
Attempting to take some very complicated psychological theory through the lens of Christian theology and explain it in a way where an average person can get on an airplane, fly from here to Dallas and by the end go, I have a pretty good understanding of who I am and how I became me.
Mark Clark [00:41:12]:
Yeah, that's good. And obviously there's a biblical. The biblical precedent isn't hard in regard to, you know, when you talk about this Genesis to Genesis 3, it's not good for men to be alone. You know, the serpent, the divisions. But I mean the concept that attaching ourselves both to God and to one another, you know, it's not that, that much of a stretch.
Kevin Thompson [00:41:39]:
No.
Mark Clark [00:41:39]:
And to see how it fits in.
Kevin Thompson [00:41:41]:
The woundedness of it, I think to me attachment theory is maybe the best explanation I've heard of what changed between Genesis 2 and Genesis 3. So in God's original plan, perfect parents are going to raise perfect children. Well now sin filled parents raise sin filled children. That has to be a different experience. What, what results from that? Attachment theory tries to explain aspects of that.
Mark Clark [00:42:03]:
So how does this. We talked a little bit about social media earlier, but so the epidemic among us for more isolation and that's probably than there's ever been in regard to like people who just, they're okay just sitting at home scrolling dopamine hits.
Mark Clark [00:42:26]:
And they can just exist like this with no attachments. It's a fascinating. You know, and even as we get into AI and this relationship that people are talking about of having with Grok and whatever systems they're talking to as they drive and they're learning and they're affirming, they're saying this is bots and girlfriends and boyfriends, whatever's going on. How is this.
Mark Clark [00:42:50]:
Bad? Like I've got to assume it's bad.
Kevin Thompson [00:42:52]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:42:52]:
Not just because it's new. Isn't this bad for us?
Kevin Thompson [00:42:58]:
Like what it's. Isn't it another one of Satan's counterfeits.
Mark Clark [00:43:01]:
Right. Isolate you away from people.
Kevin Thompson [00:43:04]:
He's not denying that you have these needs. It's that I can meet these needs in a way that requires no vulnerability from you.
Mark Clark [00:43:11]:
Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:43:12]:
And so why be no risk? Why be in a truly vulnerable relationship with a real woman who could reject you when you could be in a relationship with this AI bot who is going to literally be programmed to tell.
Mark Clark [00:43:25]:
You everything you want.
Kevin Thompson [00:43:26]:
Yeah. Yeah. And so.
Mark Clark [00:43:28]:
But the fact that it's not. What I don't understand about the psychology of this is it's not real. It's synthetic. It's not a real person. And isn't the whole game of life about.
Mark Clark [00:43:41]:
It wasn't easy to get this person in my life. It wasn't easy to keep this person. It wasn't easy to gain the respect. It wasn't easy to get their love. But I did it because I worked hard. Isn't that the win?
Kevin Thompson [00:43:51]:
No, I absolutely think so.
Mark Clark [00:43:52]:
But here versus like.
Kevin Thompson [00:43:53]:
But the win is. Here's the problem, I think, is the win is experienced down the road and all we see is hardship. I think about the parable of Jesus. Right? The idea you have a narrow road and a wide road. Well, why would anybody take the narrow road? It's harder. Right. Because it leads to life. Sure.
Kevin Thompson [00:44:10]:
So why would you go through the struggle of asking out a girl, of being in a real relationship, where you're going to mess up and they're going to see what's wrong with you. You're going to have to apologize and learn and grow because it ends to real life. Because here's the truth. Nobody's ever going to dedicate a book to an AI and say, the love that God poured through you has healed my heart. But that can happen with a real person.
Mark Clark [00:44:28]:
Maybe. Maybe they will.
Kevin Thompson [00:44:31]:
It won't be real.
Kevin Thompson [00:44:34]:
It's an avoidant pathway now of how can I protect my heart? Because what we're ultimately afraid of is we're afraid of pain. But the reality is that true love requires us to be vulnerable.
Mark Clark [00:44:47]:
We're also afraid of, like, the, as you said, the work energy it takes to keep these relationships and to keep everyone happy and to keep, you know, everyone. It's fighting. And there's this. And there's this where you just, like, you know, it's like. It's like, you know, we get to travel a bunch and it's like, you know, people say it's like you're in a house and there's chaos and there's. There's dishes to be done and there's this one crying about this and this, and there's all. And then you're like, oh, I gotta jump on a plane and go to Arkansas to preach for the weekend. And then you're.
Mark Clark [00:45:19]:
You're on the plane, everything's quiet, and you get in the rental car, you drive to the hotel room, you sit there, it's dead silent. You go out for dinner on your own, you know, have a steak and some. Everything's just chill. And you get back in there, you open the door, where's that? You know, just like. Yeah, it's so the more you get used to that, like, to have a world where you can just have the silence and without the stress and still be in relationships, in a sense, because you're having them, you know, virtually. People could get addicted.
Kevin Thompson [00:45:54]:
Well, you can see the temptation of it.
Mark Clark [00:45:56]:
I mean, for someone like me, it feels too isolating and too weird, but I guess I can see the temptation.
Kevin Thompson [00:46:02]:
But to me, it's the same thing as pornography. It's the same thing as prostitution. Right. I mean, I would assume. I don't know.
Mark Clark [00:46:12]:
We have it here. Kevin Thompson.
Kevin Thompson [00:46:14]:
I've never been with a prostitute.
Mark Clark [00:46:15]:
Prostitution.
Kevin Thompson [00:46:16]:
Tell us, aren't you telling yourself this whole time this is fake? I mean, yeah, right. But yet people do it all the time. And so I would think that this.
Mark Clark [00:46:26]:
Falls in the same category.
Kevin Thompson [00:46:27]:
I mean, prostitution and pornography are great examples of avoidant pathways. Avoidant, where I'm going to try to get this need met in a way that requires as little vulnerability from me as possible. Addiction.
Mark Clark [00:46:40]:
But anxious, too. Addiction would be that I'm anxious.
Kevin Thompson [00:46:44]:
I got to meet this need as quickly as possible. I got to. I got to. I don't know how to soothe my own needs, so I'm going to. I'm going to pay you to do it for me. I could see that.
Mark Clark [00:46:52]:
Right? Yeah, but. But, yeah, avoidant. Avoidant. I see that. Yeah. All right. Anything else? End on the old porn and prostitution.
Mark Clark [00:47:02]:
So if you're struggling with either of those, let's pick up Love Styles by Kevin Thompson, the least stylish person you'll ever meet in your life. No, these are great. Why you love the way you do and how to change it, change the odds. Podcast. We are both part of what's called the Thrive Media Group. That's not what it's called.
Kevin Thompson [00:47:21]:
Thrive Podcast Network.
Mark Clark [00:47:24]:
Sorry, Thrive Media Overall, which publishes these books and. And does a podcast. But then the Thrive Podcast Network, which this podcast is on. Kevin's podcast is on. Am I doing this right? The Bible study, all these great podcasts. So go over to that website and check it out. The Thrive podcastnetwork.com and Kevin, any last fantastic wise words for. Oh, anytime.
Kevin Thompson [00:47:49]:
Grateful for you.
Mark Clark [00:47:50]:
Okay. Grateful for you. Love Styles, everyone. Kevin Thompson. Give it up. Go get it on Amazon. This is their website.
Kevin Thompson [00:47:57]:
Change.
Mark Clark [00:47:57]:
Go get. Okay, change. Theods.com and that's where you can download the test for you and your girlfriend.
Kevin Thompson [00:48:03]:
Right there in the front row.
Mark Clark [00:48:04]:
Spouse or whatever.
Kevin Thompson [00:48:04]:
My girlfriend?
Mark Clark [00:48:05]:
No. Okay, Have a good one, y'.
Kevin Thompson [00:48:08]:
All.
Mark Clark [00:48:08]:
See you next time.