Mark Clark [00:00:03]:
All right, welcome to the Mark Clark podcast. Hopefully you guys are doing well. I am sitting here with the privilege of talking to the most likable leader in the history of the American church. Jason Young, everybody. Let's give him a hand.
Dr. Jason Young [00:00:18]:
Yeah. I'm assuming AI wrote that for you.
Mark Clark [00:00:23]:
Yes, I typed in who is the most likable leader? And it. Your name was. Was first, which is incredible. Oh, yeah, and I'm just playing, of course. But he wrote a book called Likable Leader and we published it at Thrive Media here and it's breaking all kinds of. I mean, Dan Brown is the only one who has outsold, I think this, this book to this point, I assume. Right. But it's actually an amazing book and it's got a great, it's got a great thesis.
Mark Clark [00:00:52]:
But before we get jump to that, Jason, tell us a little bit for people who don't know you. I mean, we've hung out once or twice, not a ton. So I don't know a ton about you. I know you're based out of Atlanta, Georgia, but tell us about like, yeah, who you are. Set us up. Like why. You know, we're going to be talking about leadership and likable leadership, obviously, but why are these people going to be like, oh, Jason, be the guy to listen to for this. So give us some of that kind of historical background of what you do.
Mark Clark [00:01:20]:
And.
Dr. Jason Young [00:01:22]:
Yeah. So most of work career has been church world. So I worked at a large church here in Atlanta, First Baptist Woodstock. I worked at Life Church in Oklahoma and then worked at North Point Ministries for a number of years and had different leadership roles there. But that has expanded to coaching and consulting with larger churches and organizations, you know, Grow Glue, Delta Airlines, you know, Chick Fil, a other organization. So I've been in a leader in those spaces and I've worked with leaders in other spaces. And so combine that with just the research from doing two doctoral programs and trying to figure out how do you take the real world experience and research, integrate those so we can find something that can be useful to any leader in any setting.
Mark Clark [00:02:13]:
Right, so. So that's great. So you've written other books on leadership too. Talk about those.
Dr. Jason Young [00:02:19]:
Yeah. So it's an interesting question. Like this book compared to those. So there are others. They have themes of leadership threaded throughout them. So on burnout, on building a volunteer culture, on getting guests to come back to your. Your church, this one is a little bit more distinctive in that it kind of narrows down a focus on relational influence. So what do you need to create greater effectiveness.
Dr. Jason Young [00:02:46]:
And so in this book is talking about really using influence, but really before you get there, you have to build the relationships which sound commonplace, but I am flabbergasted how many people do not focus on this.
Mark Clark [00:02:59]:
Right. So let's jump kind of into that exact thesis. So you're. The thesis of the book is basically, I mean, I'm going to say it, but you're going to say it better than me. But it's basically like you're going to get the crass way of saying you're going to get ahead in life and leadership and organizations and personal relationships better if you're likable. Is that, is that the crassus versus unlikable?
Dr. Jason Young [00:03:29]:
Yeah. Well, when you look at definition of unlikable, it's the absence of care and sensitivity. So who wants to hang out with someone that is not caring or sensitive to the situation at hand or to the person in front of them? Think about it this way. I don't know about you, but for me, in 25 plus years, I have always heard about leadership related to skills titles, but not so much about relationships. And then when I look at the leaders that have people that love to follow them, most of them, if not all of them, on some level, it's beyond competence. It's related to this aspect of being genuinely likable. So really in the book is how do you build, identify and build practical habits that can increase trust, increase connection, that actually get you where you really want to go, but you do it with other people.
Mark Clark [00:04:21]:
That's great. So what was kind of the inspiration? When did you realize like, okay, this is a book that I need to, this is a thesis. I need to get out into the leadership world because it's, it's, that's being missed because I think, look, I know we've been in a lot of leadership spaces and I know a lot of leaders who, you look at them and you go to your point, you have some competencies, you got some, you know, but you keep hitting this lid of like, dang, like you're just, you're never going to go to that next level of leadership. And what, and part of it for me is like, it's a likability thing. But then I ask the question, I think everyone will ask this question. I think one of the core things of the book is can you teach this? Because you know, you know what it's like to look at a leader and you're like, man, I wish I could just take a couple of those dials. And go, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, and solve all this for you. And then you try it, or you would have.
Mark Clark [00:05:18]:
And it's just like, is this teachable or is this just like a. A factor in the leader's life that's not. You either have it or you don't. You know, that kind of old question.
Dr. Jason Young [00:05:31]:
This is not a great answer, but it's both.
Mark Clark [00:05:34]:
Right, right, right.
Dr. Jason Young [00:05:35]:
So really there's no answer. I mean, the impetus in writing the book, I think I had seen so many leaders, and I'm like, why do people really want to follow them? Why do they speak about that leader so affectionately when the leader's not in the room? And then flip side of the same coin. Why does this turnover like that disconnect? Why do they speak so you know, poorly about that leader? And just kind of digging around for. Actually, I worked on this, researched it for years, three years, specifically.
Mark Clark [00:06:05]:
And you did a doctorate on this research, is that right?
Dr. Jason Young [00:06:07]:
Or there. There was a part of the doctoral program that focused on this specifically. How can emotional intelligence help you boost emotional intelligence?
Mark Clark [00:06:16]:
Yeah, that's a great. Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Jason Young [00:06:18]:
And so years ago, there was an executive at Yahoo that wrote a book on likability factor. And I really wanted to pick up where he left off. And so I wanted to contextualize it a bit differently. I wanted to modernize it a little bit, and I wanted it to be packed with a little bit more research and practicality that I don't think his book had, of course, it had many years old. So that was kind of the impetus of it. The question I had to ask and answer before writing it is if somebody reads this and they say to themselves, jason, I don't feel really likable, what you got for me?
Mark Clark [00:06:56]:
Yeah.
Dr. Jason Young [00:06:57]:
Can they do anything about it? And the answer is yes. Now, some are already doing well in some of these areas. Some obviously are not. So the work is going to be harder, the time is going to be longer, and the discipline is going to have to be greater for those that might feel like they're working more so from a deficit, and maybe we'll get to it. Why? Well, how do you know where. Where you are on the spectrum?
Mark Clark [00:07:21]:
Yeah. Hit it. Let's go now. Let's go now. How do you know and what do you. Yeah. What do you do about it?
Dr. Jason Young [00:07:27]:
Yeah, so. Well, here's the thing about it. It's. It's not really up to you. The leader to self. Sure identify or self assess, but that's what a lot of times leaders do is like, well, I look in the mirror and I mean, I think I'm doing a pretty good job. But that's the problem. I'm not talking about what you're doing, I'm talking about who you are.
Dr. Jason Young [00:07:47]:
So likability kind of peels back. Yeah. You may speak wonderful on a platform, you may lead a meeting really well because you're efficient, you may, you know, raise great money. Cool. And I'm not divorcing in leadership, doing and being. What I am saying is there's an inner and outer work and this book is focusing more on the inner work. So how can you figure out where you are? Ask, ask other people, family, peers, those that report to you, colleagues, you know, if you're in church or in the business world and it's, you're asking specific questions on how well do I listen to you, how much clarity do I provide in leadership? You know, so I mean there are some practical things, you know, when you in a space of humility. So it's really asking other people.
Dr. Jason Young [00:08:39]:
In the back of the book there is a free assessment that you could take just, just to get you started to say, hey, this is probably a good place to start. And it's in the back of the book.
Mark Clark [00:08:47]:
Yep. And there's like a scoring system. You could basically just be like, oh dang, I'm not likable at all. So what, so what are like, give me like a story of like, I saw this leader, I realized their likability was low and it was holding the back. So I kind of dug in or. And it solved it or because I agree, so, so take me down this road for a quick self awareness in leadership is one of the most fascinating things to me because the amount of leaders and of course you and I are very self aware, but everyone else. No but, but, but like the amount of leaders that are not self aware, they just, they, they, the way they come, the way they come across, their tone, there's just a real lack of self awareness in leadership. To the point where I'm in meetings sometimes and I'm sitting there saying like, you know, everyone around you has come to me at some point and said something about you.
Mark Clark [00:09:53]:
That's xyz. But you aren't cluing into any of that at all. You're not, you're not aware that people perceive you this way. And, and you're almost sitting in a meeting with three or four other people who all know this and you're like, are you asking us to just tell you this outright? Because it's going to be really offensive to just tell you in front of all these people what everyone knows, but they're clueless to it. So what is this? I mean, obviously there's the basic psychology of we just, you know, we're not aware of what people perceive of us. But how do we get better at that?
Dr. Jason Young [00:10:24]:
Yeah. There's a temptation I find a lot of leaders fall into, and it's this. You have a choice as a leader to either pick up a mirror or binoculars. The difference, that's good. If you pick up binoculars, I hold them up and I'm looking at other people, that brings them closer and I pick them apart. The mirror is. Nobody else is in the mirror except myself.
Mark Clark [00:10:45]:
Sure.
Dr. Jason Young [00:10:46]:
And it's more fun to do that to other people.
Mark Clark [00:10:49]:
Sure.
Dr. Jason Young [00:10:49]:
Because I could do it at a distance and it like makes me feel better.
Mark Clark [00:10:52]:
Yeah.
Dr. Jason Young [00:10:53]:
But when I hold up a mirror, it's like, well, I do see A, B and C. Or I need to work on X, Y and Z. Maybe. Mark, I would say this and I don't. This may be a whole nother podcast conversation. I would say that in leadership, self awareness is the hinge on which the leadership door swings.
Mark Clark [00:11:13]:
Great, Love that.
Dr. Jason Young [00:11:15]:
So if you aren't self aware and awareness is this, what are my tendencies? What are my triggers? So when you look at emotional intelligence, true emotional intelligence is surfaces under stress, not in an easy situation. So what are my tendencies? And one of my triggers, especially when I am under the microscope or when I feel the pressure, when it's high stakes, it's high pressure. What's the real me that's coming out and how aware am I? For example, Jason Young. My tendency is a trigger for me is a really bad attitude. Somebody that just stays in the world of negativity. My want to is to like pull you close to me and go, stop, you're annoying. I don't like it. Do you see what you're doing to people? Actually do.
Dr. Jason Young [00:12:09]:
People don't even want to be around you. That's really what like, I want to say. My self awareness says what's in the back pocket that you could pull out in this moment, that you could stay calm and you could stay in the moment, but you don't have to create division or isolation in the relationship. And that's the thing about likability and emotional intelligence is we're trying to protect the relationship. We're not just becoming obsessed with a list of tasks. Let me say this and I'll give you an example. Research time and time again shows that when warmth and trust are present, it most often outweighs competence when it comes to measuring followership. So if you're looking for higher engagement, higher loyalty, discretionary effort, which, you know, I'm sure most people know effort beyond what I have to give at my job, it's discretion.
Dr. Jason Young [00:13:00]:
It's up to my discretion whether I want to give it or not. You cross that line when you're a likable leader and people are more than willing to do that. Here's an example from myself. Flip side of the same coin. I made a decision. One, I had a number of volunteers I was leading. Their particular group of volunteers had about 850 on this team, and I had research for 90 days that our rotation of being of. Of our volunteers was every three weeks.
Dr. Jason Young [00:13:33]:
And I calculated and researched and did a lot of work that if we can move it down to every two weeks, we could boost productivity, efficiency, performance, all of this. I pitched it to those I reported to, like, facts were there. Great. So I implemented the change. The first day I implemented the change, 210 volunteers quit. I'm like, oh, my word, Not a great day. They're emailing the pastor. They're like, you know what? Do you know how much money I give to this church? I don't even know how much money I give to this church.
Dr. Jason Young [00:14:05]:
So, no, I don't. I don't know. I'm just focused on, like, what I'm doing and the result that I want.
Mark Clark [00:14:12]:
I moneyballed the volunteer system, and it works on paper. Why not? Yeah.
Dr. Jason Young [00:14:19]:
Yeah. I realized I made a crucial mistake. The very thing that I valued relationships, I violated. And I focused on my competency and the ability to force. Force change to get a result.
Mark Clark [00:14:35]:
Yeah.
Dr. Jason Young [00:14:36]:
I had to back up and eat my own lunch.
Mark Clark [00:14:40]:
Right?
Dr. Jason Young [00:14:40]:
Right. So I backed up and I said, okay, what did I do wrong? The decision was right. The way I went about it was wrong. Flip side of the same coin. The only way to recover was to go through this, really, this conversation, this vehicle we're talking about, of likability. I need to focus on my connections. I need to show up in a humble and say, hey, the decision was right. The way I did it, completely wrong.
Mark Clark [00:15:04]:
Right.
Dr. Jason Young [00:15:04]:
I need to rebuild trust. So the very elements of likability we're talking about ended up. Check this out. Literally within the next 90 days of 210 quit. Now, some came back. They were like, I was just mad at you. And I'm like, all right, cool. Hug it out.
Dr. Jason Young [00:15:18]:
Move on. Yeah, within the next 90 days of that decision. Because of implementing those likability aspects, we added 350 new people to the team.
Mark Clark [00:15:29]:
Right.
Dr. Jason Young [00:15:30]:
And so it just juxtaposes. When you choose not to demonstrate or lead with likability, you pay a price.
Mark Clark [00:15:36]:
Yeah.
Dr. Jason Young [00:15:37]:
When you choose to embrace the very things we're talking about as it relates to likability, then you, you get to enjoy the reward.
Mark Clark [00:15:44]:
That's great. What, what I loved is the opening the book you actually talk about, you know, some, some, some stuff from real life, like if you get pulled over by a cop or, you know, if you, you know, your doctor is going to pay way more attention to you and find out things that are wrong with you if you're likable. And. Yeah, probably one of the best leadership principles I've ever learned in my life was from watching my friend Anthony back years ago. We would, we started hanging out with this family and we would go for dinner with them two or three nights a week. And I noticed that he would always find out the name of the server and then use it through the whole meal, like, just immediately, like when she comes up. When he comes up, puts the waters down. Hey, what's your name? Oh, your name's, you know, Sarah.
Mark Clark [00:16:33]:
Cool, Sarah, how's your day? Hopefully it's going well. And then she comes back, hey, can I help you think, Sarah, we don't even know what we're going to order. What do you think? And over time, you realize the power. I mean, this is a basic Dale Carnegie thing. You know, the power of the name. The power of the name. But those, those leadership or selling principles, the Dale Carnegie stuff is such a part of this too. Right.
Mark Clark [00:16:57]:
And a lot of people. And I'll give that book to leaders all the time. You know, how to win friends and influence people. And they're like, oh, yeah, I'm, you know, I'm a leader. I'm not here to make friends. And it's like, no, no, that's not the point of the book. You know, you're going to get ahead in life and you're going to influence and impact people more if you're someone who can do these, these hacks in life and that, and that's a great, it's a great thing that I learned about, like, oh, using people's names is a way to get ahead in life. And so what are some of those things that you've learned? Because that's really kind of what part of this is too.
Mark Clark [00:17:32]:
If the likability factor of those kind of classic Carnegie principles You know, yeah.
Dr. Jason Young [00:17:40]:
I'm not that smart to come up with all this. So this has been floating around. There's a lot of research and even practical stuff people have written on it. There's I do. I work with a global organization, and in studying a million behavioral profiles, the question was, can we discover what likable leaders do? What's interesting is you just illustrated one of those and it's that you use people's names. Because what's interesting and why it's important is it makes people feel seen. Here's the thing. People don't want to be noticed.
Dr. Jason Young [00:18:11]:
You notice things, but you see people. People want to feel seen in a way that makes them comfortable. One way to do that is through their name. Another way to do that is you know when to put your phone down. Now, that doesn't mean you put it upside down in front of you, because that's not a way, but you know, to put your phone away. And it's interesting. That's a behavior that people perceive as likable. It's interesting.
Dr. Jason Young [00:18:36]:
UCLA years ago did a research project. They gave 500 adjectives to a group of people, and they said, hey, think about somebody that's likable and choose the top three adjectives that you would assign to them. Okay, cool. They go through all this, so they had to get rid of 497. Well, the assumption was that you would choose sociable, attractive, and intelligence, but weren't even in the top. What did show up is sincerity, transparency, and the ability to understand another human, AKA empathy. Not about competence. And so when I talk and work with leaders, and I work with leaders in $100 billion organizations, Fortune 100 orgs, churches, nonprofits, it doesn't matter, because human behavior is human behavior.
Dr. Jason Young [00:19:24]:
A lot of times we want to flex what we do, but we don't focus on this stuff so much because this is what I hear from leaders. Oh, that's the soft stuff. That's. I don't need people to like me. And it's like, that's not what we're talking about.
Mark Clark [00:19:38]:
Right.
Dr. Jason Young [00:19:39]:
What I'm saying is competence alone is not enough.
Mark Clark [00:19:43]:
Yes.
Dr. Jason Young [00:19:43]:
But when you add to it this aspect that you want to connect, you want to build trust, you want to demonstrate humility, you're going to use names, you're going to put away a phone, you're going to listen actively, which means I don't have to solve the world's problems by today. I listen to you. That makes you feel seen, that builds trust, psychologically safe. And the Relationship grows. Like, these are the things that we are talking about. And this is another thing leaders say, well, that takes time. I've got stuff to do. To which I would say, very weak answer.
Dr. Jason Young [00:20:18]:
And you act as if this is getting in the way of you doing stuff. What I'm suggesting is this actually makes the journey of doing stuff richer and better because you're able to do it with people and you're empowering them to know what it's like to be a healthy leader.
Mark Clark [00:20:34]:
Yeah. And your, your actual results and productivity will be better because you'll be able to have four or five or 10 or 800 people doing stuff versus just you or a group of people. What, what role does. I've noticed this about as I try to. I try my best to be somewhat, you know, constantly analyzing my own self and my own style and whatever. And I have like a whole list of disasters and flaws that I've. But one thing I noticed sometimes is that I try to inject some fun. What.
Mark Clark [00:21:09]:
What is that? I mean, I don't remember it being part of the book. It probably is part of the book. What, what part does fun play? And I don't mean like, I don't mean like, okay, we went bowling. Like that's, yeah. Know, everyone is like, crap, I got this bowling thing I got to do at 2:00'. Clock. I got stuff to do. You know, but, but like just, you walk into a meeting, you have some laugh, you know that, you know, it's like, it's like my buddy sent me a meme the other day and it's the girl sitting at the restaurant and she's at this.
Mark Clark [00:21:42]:
She's at the side of the table where the guy's talking about his investment portfolio and she's just nodding. But then the people at the end are laughing and they're ah, you know, and, and you're just nodding. At the boring end of the table when it seems like those people are having a lot of fun, it's like, I want to create that side of the table. Right. Is that, is that part of this?
Dr. Jason Young [00:22:02]:
It is. I mean, if you think about it, if you're around somebody who is constantly serious, it can feel draining. Cause remember this likability is a lot about feeling. So likability is. There's a benefit that someone receives by being around you. You ever said this, Mark? And maybe those listening, you've said, man, I don't know what it is about that person, but I just love being around them. There's something endearing or fun or engaging or caring. That lightens you, lifts you.
Dr. Jason Young [00:22:36]:
You enjoy the moment. In fact, my wife's a therapist, and if she were here, she's much smarter than me. She would tell you this about the whole fun idea. When people enjoy being together. That's actually how she defines joy. Knowing that someone is glad to be with you. And when you know that Mark's glad to be with you, or Jason's glad to be with you, or, you know, my wife or Stacy, you know, glad to be with me. Like, this level of joy elevates who you are.
Dr. Jason Young [00:23:05]:
And I think it's the same thing when it comes to fun. Like, there's an aspect of authenticity and genuineness, which are really foundational because people can smell through.
Mark Clark [00:23:13]:
Yeah.
Dr. Jason Young [00:23:14]:
Whether you're genuine or not. Right. And what that does is it. It creates an invitation to lean in and not a rejection that, you know what? You need to lean out.
Mark Clark [00:23:27]:
Yeah. Because that's good.
Dr. Jason Young [00:23:28]:
Some of the worst kind of pain is attachment pain. So when we're attached to somebody and they do something to us, that pain is felt on a deeper level, especially if there's an aspect of rejection. Right. Nobody wants to be rejected. So when you think about your role as a leader and people that follow you, do you lead in a way that makes people feel rejected, or do you lead in a way that people know? Man, Mark is glad to be with me. He's enjoyable. He owns mistakes. He's.
Dr. Jason Young [00:23:55]:
He's his real self. He's not perfect. He's himself.
Mark Clark [00:23:58]:
Yeah.
Dr. Jason Young [00:23:59]:
It creates deeper connection, and it lightens and lifts us both. And, man, people want to be around that individual. So it's not an either or. It's just Emma. Self awareness. Let's be lighter in this moment. All right. Let's focus.
Dr. Jason Young [00:24:12]:
We got to kind of hone in on this, get it done. Cool. But we can enjoy it in the process. And it doesn't always feel serious or as you lead, it doesn't feel punitive.
Mark Clark [00:24:21]:
Yeah, that's good. And the psychology also. And this was this book I read years ago. Forget the name of it, but what was it? It was. It was a secular book about the workplace. You probably know what it was. But it was popular back in the day. But it basically talked about the idea that the top reason people say they work at a particular organization is not the amount of money they make.
Mark Clark [00:24:43]:
It's not da, da, da. It's the fact that they have one friend, one or two friends at the organization. They connect into that friendship, and it's what keeps Them at the present job versus leaving. Is that friendship?
Dr. Jason Young [00:24:58]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:24:58]:
Versus all the stuff we think it is. Oh well, you know, we'll do, we'll give them a little more money or we'll give them something to do that's. It's like, no, these people, the reason they stick is because of the friendships, the relationships, the laughter, the, the memories, you know, all of that. So. Which is just a very interesting. And back to Carnegie. Like we're emotional creatures. We're not analytic, reasonable creatures.
Mark Clark [00:25:22]:
Purely. We're emotional. So you got appeal to some of that.
Dr. Jason Young [00:25:25]:
So yeah.
Mark Clark [00:25:26]:
What are some of the like misconceptions about a likable leader?
Dr. Jason Young [00:25:31]:
Well, I, this is what I often hear when it comes to the subject of likable leadership. That it's soft or it doesn't matter that much. It's really about what you produce. I hear about likable leaders. I don't need this, this here's an, here's an adage. You don't have to be liked, just respected. I heard that growing up. It's like you need people to respect you.
Dr. Jason Young [00:25:57]:
It's not about them liking you. And I, I didn't know what I didn't know. And so I bought into all of that.
Mark Clark [00:26:05]:
Sure.
Dr. Jason Young [00:26:05]:
And the older I've gotten, I've realized likability. If you want to become a leader people love to follow, then you have to self. Aware. You have to look in the mirror and go, what's it like to be on the other side of me? The other side of. And you're not filling out your own comment card.
Mark Clark [00:26:22]:
Right.
Dr. Jason Young [00:26:23]:
It's other people filling it out for you. Hey, you don't listen. You interrupt. You don't, you know, you don't listen to me. You don't even remember the story. You keep asking me the same thing. You always expect me to drop everything. But when I ask you, you're not interested or you know, I'm always feel like I'm interrupting you or you have to be the smartest person in the room.
Dr. Jason Young [00:26:45]:
You know, there's just these things that you may not be self aware, but what it does is it creates distance from the people that you, you want to follow you. And so I just think there's some misconceptions that it's soft. In fact, it's the idea of like nice and kind. You know, nice is I'm going to be nice to your face, but I'm not going to say what I could but kind. I want to be honest, but I can do it in a way, because we are connected and it lands well with you. So, you know, I think these are just things that we have to work through. And you can call it soft if you want to. I actually think it's very difficult to be disciplined, to grow in these areas and to connect deeper with people.
Dr. Jason Young [00:27:30]:
That's harder work than just telling people what to do, you know, and forcing people to do things or not listening and trying to get your way. Because you're obviously the smartest person in the organization. If you find yourself being the smartest person in the room, you might want to go find another room to be in, because that is not an invitation from other people to lean in and to contribute. I work for a. I remember working for a leader. I'll go ahead and say his name. Andy Stanley, Pastor here in Atlanta.
Mark Clark [00:27:57]:
Who's that? I don't understand. Let me look him up.
Dr. Jason Young [00:27:59]:
Yeah, yeah, Google him.
Mark Clark [00:28:01]:
Yeah, Google.
Dr. Jason Young [00:28:02]:
A remarkable leader, but one. He does a lot of things well. People know him mostly for his effective communication. But I'll tell you something that most people don't see. I would be in meeting after meeting after meeting after meeting with him. And here's a guy who is recognized as a remarkable communicator, a remarkable writer. Never underlined, never did he ever show up in a meeting as the smartest person. He would also, he would often invite other voices.
Dr. Jason Young [00:28:32]:
So what do you think? You know, and it was never, like, overpowering. So it was just this way that you leaned in because you knew he valued your voice and what you were going to say, and many, many times went with what other people said, not even what he was thinking. And so it's just one of those things that it was a very endearing aspect or likable as we're talking about, because I think it demonstrated one of the key attributes. We talked about this in one of the chapters is being humble.
Mark Clark [00:29:00]:
Yeah. But I think what happens is insecurity happens in so many leaders that they're afraid to be humble. They're afraid to have smarter people than them. They're afraid to go with other people's ideas because they're constantly in a mode of, I have to show my worth in this meeting. I have to show people that I'm a contributor, that I'm a great. I have great competencies. And so I don't want to look weak by inclu. You know, and it's.
Mark Clark [00:29:29]:
It's unfortunate that we're like that.
Dr. Jason Young [00:29:32]:
Yeah, yeah. So here's a distinction. This is what I work with leaders on. The question Is this, do you want to prove that you deserve to be in your position to be at the organization or do you want to add value and you have a decision to make?
Mark Clark [00:29:50]:
Right.
Dr. Jason Young [00:29:50]:
You know, and so if you want to prove that you deserve to be there, then talk all the time, don't listen, show, you know, et cetera, et cetera. Or adding value is what will it take for me to deepen the connection among my team, volunteers, whoever you lead, asking questions, actively listening, showing appreciation. I mean, these are the things that increase engagement, boost retention, the very things that senior leaders want. Just sometimes we're not willing to do it because we do tell ourselves this story. I have to know the answer. I have to fix the problem. I have to all of this stuff. And the question is, who told you that?
Mark Clark [00:30:29]:
Yeah, yeah, it's good. I heard this phrase a long time ago. Are you trying to. It's a bit of a different point, but just thinking about it, am I trying to make a point or am I trying to make a difference? And it's like so often even in conflict scenarios, it's like, am I going to, am I going to go into this with this person and try to just make a point for the sake of making a point or do I want this organization to actually be better? And so often, as you know, it's like we're just about self preservation, you know, the way my daddy raised me, yada, yada, yada. And this is the hard thing. Every person's got their own little enneagram profile thing with their attachment theory. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just like, oh gosh, this guy's living out of something that happened with his kindergarten class, you know, and so, yeah, we are.
Mark Clark [00:31:12]:
And that's what I'm coming back to the point. Leadership is an emotional world, not just an ideas world or not just a results oriented world. It's this world of emotions where you're having to. It's the same with communicating. It's. You're in a room, you can either try to get through content or you can realize, oh, I'm, I'm losing the room on the left. I'm going to do this. And then I'm losing this guy in the center.
Mark Clark [00:31:36]:
I'm going to do this. I got to. The whole thing is one big emotional thing. Christopher Nolan talks about the idea that like at the end of a movie, the biggest thing people walk away with is how it made them feel.
Dr. Jason Young [00:31:49]:
Yeah, that's it.
Mark Clark [00:31:50]:
That's why, I mean, Nolan's philosophy on making movies is Literally, he's like. The last 20 minutes of a Christopher Nolan movie is basically a musical. It's just Hans Zimmer on his organ going. And you leave the theater and you're like, that was the greatest thing I've ever seen in my life. Like, what. What did I just watch? You know, And. And you're like, why? And you're like, I don't know even know what the content was, but it made me feel a certain thing, you know, and so many leaders aren't trying to go after that. They're trying to get out, get through certain content or just thinking too rationally or analytic.
Dr. Jason Young [00:32:23]:
Yeah, well, I mean, when you think about. And we won't have to go deep into this, but when you think about the construction of the brain, all of our brains are designed the same way that, you know, in the center of the brain is the limbic system where, among other things, you know, emotions are housed. It's, you know, the front of the brain, this prefrontal cortex, is where, like, logic and rational thinking happen. And so when something comes into the nervous system first, a word somebody says, an image you see, somebody jumps out and scares you, or you're in a meeting and a leader. And a leader says something negative to you or bites your head off or encourages you, it goes in the nervous system and it stops in the limbic system. And you feel. Feel something about that. It may or may not ever make it to the front of the brain to be logically processed.
Dr. Jason Young [00:33:14]:
That's why reminding leaders, you know, this is critical, important. And you see this. You mentioned Dale Carnegie's book, I think, you know, Simon Sinek's book Leaders Eat Last. Adam Grant wrote in Give and Take, all of this idea about serving other people, building deeper connections with other people, thinking about influence and generosity as it relates to a leader. Like, all of this matters and it's boosting your likability factor, your likability quotient, if you will, so that you can be more effective, so that people enjoy being around you, so that you can have retention and engagement and all of the things that most healthy leaders want, this is the way to do it.
Mark Clark [00:33:56]:
That's so good. The relationship series that we're going to do. And I might be a little slow on this, but it dawned on me the other day, so I'm sitting in this meeting and we're like, hey, let's take Ephesians chapter 5 and 6 and just kind of do a little sub series on relationships. And so, you know, you have all these. So so I'm sitting there looking at the text and kind of coming up with like, okay, how would we structure this? And I got to chapter five, verse 21, and he says, you know, submit yourselves to one another out of reference, out of reverence. And then he. And then he starts with the wives. He's like, hey, wives, submit to your husbands.
Mark Clark [00:34:32]:
And then husbands submit to your wives. And then children, submit to your parents. And then parents, don't tick your kids off. And then slaves and masters. And then the. And then the. The. The.
Mark Clark [00:34:42]:
The body armor and all that. And I was like, Man, 5 21, this. It hit me. And I. As I talked it out loud to the group, I was. They were all like, yeah, we all know this. But I was having, like, a. Like a oh, my gosh moment.
Mark Clark [00:34:56]:
And I'm like, what? This. What Paul just said in 5:21 is the. The key ingredient to flourish in all relationships in life is submission. It blew my mind. I stopped the whole meeting. I'm like, what are we talking about? We just came up with a sermon series about if you submit in your marriage, you're going to flourish. If kids submit to their parents, they're going to flourish. If parents submit to their kids.
Mark Clark [00:35:23]:
In some ways, you know, because he says, dads don't, you know, drive your kids nuts or work relationships. You go into meetings and you submit to other people. Their ideas are great. You abandon your ideas. They're. You're. If we're all doing that mutually.
Dr. Jason Young [00:35:43]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:35:44]:
You're going to get further in life, wouldn't you? I mean, doesn't this kind of fit into everything you're saying?
Dr. Jason Young [00:35:49]:
It does. It really juxtaposes, do you want to flex or do you want to flourish?
Mark Clark [00:35:53]:
Right.
Dr. Jason Young [00:35:53]:
And what. Whatever direction you choose is going to come with a set of behaviors and beliefs. And at the end of the day, when you choose to flourish, it's actually an end result of you submitting, honoring, lifting up, encouraging, challenging, but in a way that feels trustworthy.
Mark Clark [00:36:13]:
Yes.
Dr. Jason Young [00:36:14]:
Like, man, I want to be around Mark. I want to be around Jason again. That. That's the idea is. And I love that you use the word flourish, because I do think it. It has a central place in this whole conversation, that if you want to flourish, it's about deeper connections.
Mark Clark [00:36:32]:
Yeah.
Dr. Jason Young [00:36:32]:
If you want to help other people flourish, it's about deeper connections. It takes a lot of work. Welcome to the world of leadership.
Mark Clark [00:36:40]:
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Okay, so what's one thing you want readers to walk away with when they think about this book? One way it like, practically helps them. An idea that's like, okay, if. Because I think, honestly, this is the kind of book that I'm going to give to leaders because there's already four or five leaders in our organization that I think. And it's funny because I'm not giving it to them to be like, this is the funny thing about marketing this book right for yourself is like, it's like, it's like with my books, it's like the problem of God, the problem of Jesus, the problem of life. Everyone's like, well, it's kind of like a negative. You know, there's no, you know, you, you go on Amazon, it's like, there's no problems with Jesus.
Mark Clark [00:37:22]:
It's like, that's not what I'm saying. Read the book, you know? Yeah, but it's kind of like every time I hand this book to a leader.
Dr. Jason Young [00:37:29]:
Yeah. Hey, what's the saying?
Mark Clark [00:37:32]:
Yeah, dude, you would really benefit from this because you ain't likable. Yeah. So it's kind of an awkward. But all that to say it's, it's, it's, it's actually a great conversation piece because it's like, no, no, no. We all, everybody needs to be reading this. And I just see you as a leader who would actually want to be self aware and, you know, read this with me as I'm going through it too. Right.
Dr. Jason Young [00:37:53]:
Yeah. I, I would say a key takeaway is, hey, what we do as leaders, incredibly important. Who you are as a leader, incredibly important. Who you are makes what you do better. But what you do doesn't always make you better. And so this, again, that difference in that inner and outer work and what I know about you, again, I'm just playing this out like, Mark, what I know about you is you're intentional. And I know that you care about how you show up, how you listen, how you connect with others, how you build trust, how you want to influence, how you want to have this lasting impact. And in this book simply just builds on that.
Dr. Jason Young [00:38:33]:
Now, the flip side is hard because you're like, man, I know, because I hear this all the time. I want to give this to my pastor, who's not very likable or a spouse or whatever, I think will approach with caution.
Mark Clark [00:38:50]:
Yes, of course. Yes.
Dr. Jason Young [00:38:51]:
You know, and think about the idea is this. If anybody, any human, wants to build deeper connections with other people, this book can help you do that.
Mark Clark [00:39:01]:
Yeah. Yeah, that's good. What was your work with Delta and Chick Fil A? What were those projects?
Dr. Jason Young [00:39:10]:
Yeah. So do a lot. Like, all of it's in human behavior. So Chick Fil a was around, like, leadership development, building experiences. So how do you understand people that gets them to come back to a store? How do you lead the team that does that? Delta is a couple things in the leadership development space. The other thing is, how do you understand people to get them to come back to, like, the Delta Sky Club. So we did all the sky clubs across the world.
Mark Clark [00:39:38]:
Oh, cool.
Dr. Jason Young [00:39:39]:
And it's. How do we build better leaders that lead those teams? How do those teams show up and care better for the guest? What are the things from a human behavior perspective that guests want to see and feel and know? Are we meeting those needs? Because there's some finances connected to the sky clubs significantly impactful to Delta. You know, frequent flyers and, you know, things of that nature. So from. From me, and I love that word use flourish. I really do a lot of work in helping a leader, helping their team, helping the organization, church or company thrive and flourish.
Mark Clark [00:40:14]:
Yeah, that's great.
Dr. Jason Young [00:40:15]:
And this book is one way that we can help do that. Remember this. When your team shows up better or when you. The leader shows up better, when your team shows up better then all of those that come to your church or the volunteers that show up, or if you lead a corporation, the guest or customers, clients that show up, like, they get a better experience because of the experience that you are generating as a leader and as a team. So everybody wins. And the idea of this is it doesn't just stop with the leader, but it's just these concentric circles of impact. But it does start with the leader.
Mark Clark [00:40:51]:
Have you. Yeah, that's really good. Doesn't stop with the leader. Starts with. Have you read Unreasonable Hospitality?
Dr. Jason Young [00:40:57]:
Yeah. Yeah, right.
Mark Clark [00:40:58]:
I bet. I bet with like, your lounge work and all that, it's just such a great. Such a great example of this kind of thing. Again, we're talking about like the. The reverse. Like, if you serve other people or, you know, to Ephesians 5, 29, if you submit yourself. Like, these are the things that get you ahead in life versus you walking into a room thinking you need to show everybody that you're so great. Everyone sees through that.
Mark Clark [00:41:26]:
Everyone's like, nobody wants to be around that.
Dr. Jason Young [00:41:30]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:41:31]:
You know, and it's like, I love.
Dr. Jason Young [00:41:34]:
That you said hospitality, because I think if you're a leader. So for me, this is what I did my. My first doctoral work in is hospitality and human emotion. So I had to come up with an operable definition, a working definition for it, and it's intentionally providing generous care to a person. So when you, a leader think about, I'm going to intentionally provide, that means I've got to like, think about it, do something generous. It's not limited care, feels personal to each person, means I'm going to see each person. I'm not going to see the mass, I'm going to see the one.
Mark Clark [00:42:07]:
Yes.
Dr. Jason Young [00:42:07]:
So there's a, there's a church in here in Atlanta and they talk about, I'm not going to get this right. But my buddy Greg, he says we prepare for, look for and care for the one. That's hospitality. So as you as a leader, thinking about likability, if you could think of the next meeting you have, you're hosting the people in that meeting and what does a host do? They intentionally provide generous care. That care could be listening, encouragement, questions, whatever. It could look a lot of different ways. And I think the unreasonable hospitality is like, just be remarkable at providing that. Because when you're remarkable, you give people a reason to remark about you and your leadership.
Mark Clark [00:42:49]:
Yeah, that's good. Yeah. My, my wife is very into the world of hospitality and just wanting to create spaces and experiences for, you know, all of that. And, and it really is, it's a Jesus thing. I mean, if you think about it, if you think about it, you know, Jesus gave us a towel, not a parking space. You know, this is something I say in front of leaders. It's like, if the main image of a, of a leader is a towel, then so many of the things that we go after just are like, silly and it's. And you know, oftentimes that whole towel, like serving other people, it's seen as like a virtue thing.
Mark Clark [00:43:34]:
And I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It is a virtue thing. Great. But it's also just super pragmatic and can help you get to your end goal.
Dr. Jason Young [00:43:46]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:43:46]:
If your end goal is like making more money, like, let's take just the most crass, non virtuous thing you could think of. It's like, no, no, I'm not telling you to serve people just because it's virtuous. Yes, it is. I'm telling you it's the way to make more money. It's the way to get to the result of what you want to, you want to get a promotion in an organization. The way to do it is serve people, you know, so C.J. alvarado, one of the guys who works here, I don't know, did you meet CJ when you were here? Hanging. Okay, so he's working on this book right now.
Mark Clark [00:44:20]:
I think he's gonna call it Win the Room. But basically his thesis is like, if you're in any layer of an organization, you should be saying, you should be asking yourself this question. What is the thing that keeps my boss awake at night? How do I solve that? Because if you're just creating pride. Q Ma, if someone under you comes. Hey, Jason, I realize you were saying this in the meeting. I solved it last night. Me and this group of people, we got together and solved it. You're going, I need this person on my team, and I'm bringing them back in the next meeting.
Mark Clark [00:44:51]:
You know what I mean?
Dr. Jason Young [00:44:51]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:44:52]:
But if all you do is bring problems and, you know, whatever, you're never gonna. Anyway, so. All right, what's. What's one kind of, one last thing you want to say about. About this topic? We could go on for. For days with this stuff.
Dr. Jason Young [00:45:04]:
I would say to a leader, give yourself permission. You don't have to figure this thing out by tomorrow. Like this is. For some people, it's going to be more work. For other people, you're going to be just turning the knobs, just dialing it in a little bit more tightly. But don't do it alone, and you're not going to do it overnight. So give yourself a little bit of room to breathe. It's going to take some time.
Dr. Jason Young [00:45:26]:
Invite some people. I call it, you know, my table of influence. Right. Who are these people that you're inviting to the table to influence your life? That way when you step away from the table, you can go influence other people. So pick up a mirror first, not the binoculars. Look at yourself. Don't go alone. And take your time.
Mark Clark [00:45:44]:
Yeah, that's so good. Oftentimes when people hear things like likable Leader, the title, they think. Well, you know, like, I can just think kind of the, you know, it's. The point of life is not to be likable. It's to tell the truth, you know, whatever. And then you realize, like, Jesus was a likable leader.
Dr. Jason Young [00:46:08]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:46:09]:
It's like, you know. Yes. Was he divisive and with what he was saying, and did he say, you know, exclusivity and truth and throw over some tables and give some prophetic critique and all that stuff? Yes. But he was also the guy that thousands of people followed because of really practical needs that he met in their life.
Dr. Jason Young [00:46:33]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:46:34]:
You know, you got a demon. I'm going to help you with that. You're hungry. I'm Going to help you with that. And just, I mean, there's a whole world that you could go down about. I mean, I think, I think you did mention this in the book, but just the whole idea of Jesus, he. He was somebody that. It's not like everyone hated the guy, the rulers did and whatever, but the people who are following him, there was a thing that he was helping them with emotionally.
Dr. Jason Young [00:46:57]:
And he was the opposite of what was being promoted in culture.
Mark Clark [00:47:02]:
Yes.
Dr. Jason Young [00:47:03]:
And I think if you want to be a leader that is doing some things differently that, you know, are currently promoted in culture, not just secular culture, in like church culture, in church culture, leadership world. I mean, that too is work on some of this. And you know, it's funny, you talk about Jesus. Yeah, he might have been divisive and all that kind of stuff. I actually, in fact, there's a chapter in this book, I actually think what Jesus was as it relates to that. Jesus was clear. He didn't just tell people what they wanted to hear. He wasn't trying to overpower.
Dr. Jason Young [00:47:37]:
He was clear and people knew and it was different than what culture was doing. And he was driven by relationship and he was clear and he was humble. Just so many things in the book that we see in the life of Jesus that you were drawn to him, challenged by him, but you were drawn to him because you were cared for by him.
Mark Clark [00:47:59]:
Yeah, that's good. So how does clarity come into coaching people in their likability? How do you do that in a way that doesn't blow people up or make them feel like, have you ever sat someone down and gone, look, you're not self aware enough to know this, but like, this is the way you come across. And here's what people are saying about you, because, I mean, I've done this a couple times recently and it's, it's. The results have been great because I think the people realize I'm not, I mean, I'm trying not to do this, to be a jerk. I'm, I'm trying to create a better result for them. But, but it's that trust that gets built over time to pull that off.
Dr. Jason Young [00:48:43]:
Yeah, yeah. That's the secret. And it may, the approach may vary. So with some people, I may use an assessment as a vehicle. So the assessment's neutral and we use it as a conversational springboard. So it's not Jason saying it. I'm just, I'm just elevating some things. I'm kind of lifting and shifting into our conversation what's on the assessment so that the other thing is sometimes you could do an informal, I may give a leader, hey, go ask, you know, five people and we'll work on a couple questions.
Dr. Jason Young [00:49:13]:
So for me on the coaching side, I ask a lot of questions because I think what great coaches do, great coaches uncover and not necessarily like tell or dictate. So I may ask a battery of questions that, you know, highlight some of, some of this and, or give you some homework and then we, you know, circle back and have a follow up conversation or two or more, you know, about it. So part of it depends on who the person is. What's my level of trust with them, you know, how far down the road can I go?
Mark Clark [00:49:47]:
Sure.
Dr. Jason Young [00:49:48]:
Do I need, can I go 50 miles an hour or is this like a 25 mile an hour, you know, journey? And so there's, there's all these mitigating factors, but if you're not self aware, you're not going to make wise decisions in those contexts, right?
Mark Clark [00:50:01]:
Because I can think of a few where it's been like, hey, this is, this is the way you're perceived, or this is a change. I think you and, but I've re. But oftentimes only do that with people who I, to your point, think like, okay, this person's ready to hear this and not blow up and go in a corner and twist their mustache and you know, go into depression. They're ready to like make a change and they'll make it. And I've seen that work, you know, because oftentimes what happens in leadership settings is we talk about people rather than talk to people. And I've seen that be a disaster. You sit around the water cooler and everybody talks about this person in this way. And you're like, why does someone just tell this person this is how everyone perceives you?
Dr. Jason Young [00:50:43]:
Yeah, I was working with a global organization. If I said the name, you know, it. And they were talking about a leader and I let him finish and I, I asked the question you just brought up. I said, has anybody, anybody, right, ever had a conversation with that person? And the answer was no, I don't know. I don't think we've done that. I'm like, well, why am I here? And it was like, well, I'm gonna do the hard work.
Mark Clark [00:51:15]:
You gotta go have the conversation.
Dr. Jason Young [00:51:16]:
Yeah, yeah, you go have the conversation. And I did. And it's fine. And you know, so whether you're a church place or you know, in a corporate job, or you know, even a stay at home mom or dad, or if You're a college student listening to this. You know, you're in seminary. It doesn't matter. All of us, all of us are invited to demonstrate characteristics of likability. Because what it does is it draws people.
Dr. Jason Young [00:51:45]:
And if you're a follower of Jesus, drawing people to you is not to you. You. You're drawing people so that can. They can see Jesus in you, to want to follow him too. So there's the. There's a whole biblical aspect that we haven't even really touched on, that when you are that person, you're drawing people to you so they can say, you know what?
Mark Clark [00:52:04]:
Yeah.
Dr. Jason Young [00:52:04]:
So Jesus that you're talking about, like, it's legit. Tell me more.
Mark Clark [00:52:08]:
Yeah, even like the whole, you know, I'm just thinking about the whole incense passage. And what is that, First Corinthians or Second Corinthians? We're supposed to be like a. Like a smell for Jesus to the world, right? This. That fits into this too.
Dr. Jason Young [00:52:21]:
Yeah. 100.
Mark Clark [00:52:22]:
Yeah. Love it. Okay, everybody. Likable leader Jason Young and your. Your partner, Jonathan Malm. You guys have written multiple books together, right?
Dr. Jason Young [00:52:32]:
Yeah, we've done six. Working on a few more.
Mark Clark [00:52:35]:
Are you. Well, I've yet to meet him. Probably. Probably not as likable as you, to be honest.
Dr. Jason Young [00:52:40]:
So he's actually going back to your fun comment earlier. He's. He's more fun. Fun. He's very creative and fun. So, like, great dude to be around.
Mark Clark [00:52:49]:
That's great. Well, it's a great partnership. Thank you for writing this book, honestly. Jump on Amazon, guys. Grab this book. And thank you for being part of the Thrive family, man. You're doing a great job.
Dr. Jason Young [00:52:59]:
Thank you, Mark.
Mark Clark [00:53:00]:
Cool. All right, dude, well, thank you for your time. Hopefully we can move a few books and. Yeah, bro, really good stuff.
Dr. Jason Young [00:53:11]:
Thank you. Thanks for guiding us. And, you know, I know you. You probably know this, but you're. You're really good at this stuff and just kind of like, you know, we. Weaving through things.
Mark Clark [00:53:20]:
Well, thank you. I appreciate that. Thank you so much, dude. Have fun. Hopefully. Well, next time you're out here, let's hang out, play some golf, whatever. Hopefully come out for whatever Thrive or Bible conference or something. Yeah, we gotta get up and I love it in front of some people and sell some of these books, so I appreciate it.
Dr. Jason Young [00:53:37]:
Well, if I can ever serve you in any way, you let me know.
Mark Clark [00:53:39]:
Thanks, brother. Appreciate you.
Dr. Jason Young [00:53:40]:
All right.